Subjects

Arborfield Apprentice Training School
Bandmasters and a JU88
Chepstow Apprentice Training School
Cotton apprentices
Euphonium
Grenadier Guards and Coldstream Guards
Professor Phasey
Royal Hibernian Military School
Royal Victoria Patriotic Asylum

Arborfield Apprentice Training School

12 June 2005

Art, I apologize for taking so long to write. The letter to my Mother and the prospectus made it in the OBAN issue 29 Winter 2003/4. (Ref to material published in newsletter of Arborfield Old Boys Assoc). There was no mention that you did the forwarding, which upset me. I managed to make the Arborfield reunion last year where I met many old friends. All in all, it was a worthwhile trip. Unfortunately, I'll not be able to return this year - heath problems. The AOBA forum is no longer available; it's limited to paid-up members. I have opened my own "Free" forum and will send you an invite to join. The URL is ArmyApprenticeSoldiers@groups.msn.com I'll post your web page address on the AAS links.

John, NS

12 June 2005

John, It's a pleasure to hear from you after so long a silence. Yes, I'm aware that the letter to your mother and prospectus made it into the winter issue of the OBAN. I thought it well worth publishing. You know that Arborfield is being closed? If not, this will be news to you. I'll look at the URL you noted and make some sort of response. The main thing since we last corresponded is that I have a new web site with an emphasis on military history, training and education. I had something up once for the OBAN, but the response did not justify maintaining the page. Thanks for the offer to post my website on the AAS links; I'd appreciate that. We must all expect to start unraveling at some time; it used to be three score years and ten, but it might have gone up a bit recently.

Art

15 June 2005

Art, The forum has developed fast. As you suggested, I have asked members what direction it should take. It looks as though the majority just want to shoot the bull. Not what might interest you, but check it from time to time; you never know what might show up. I'll be interested in reading the exchange with the son of George Gilligan, first intake to Cheptstow 14 April 1925. I always thought that the Apprentice program started during WWII. Today I've learned something new.

John

27 June 2005

Art, Some time ago you kindly sent a clip from Pathe News of the School at Saunton during the War. I don't think I thanked you for doing this, which was due to problems at the time, now thankfully resolved. If you remember, we were discussing Bandy Clancy and his rank. I can only remember everyone calling him "Major", but this may have been a shortened version of "Sergeant Major" used by the boys. Like you, I do remember that he often turned up for band practice slightly inebriated and flushed, but he still managed to get the best out us. Did you ever find out anything about his rank?

Now, a point of historical interest. One evening in November 1941, a group of us were kicking a ball about on the grass in front of the hotel (remember it was double British Summer Time and light until about 11 O'clock) when we heard an unusual aircraft noise. We were used to the sound of Whitney bombers on anti-mine patrol flying about 50ft above the water (and actually below us on the cliff top), but this aircraft was about 50ft higher and we could see every detail as it passed low overhead. In fact it was a JU88 and we could clearly see the crew in the coc kpit and glass nose; they appeared to be waving as they passed over! Until recently, I always wondered if I'd imagined this, but a chance discovery in Barnstaple library revealed that the inexperienced crew had thought they were over Northern France and landed at the RAF aerodrome at Chivenor where they were promptly arrested! It occurred to me that dressed as we were in khaki shorts, shirts and white braces, the Germans may have mistaken us for Hitler Youth in Lederhosen which may have accounted for the waving!

Colin 

27 June 2005

Colin, Thanks for your note. Yes, to satisfy your curiosity, my enquiry on the web brought a number of responses: Malcolm Dooley (46-51); Ted Grant; and Peter Hurst to mention three. The facts are that bandmasters posted to regimental bands from Kneller Hall became WOIs and carried that rank throughout their service. The exception were those posted to 'staff bands', who were commissioned and had the benefit of time promotion. Peter Hurst's brother attended the school in the 1930s and knew Clancy well. He (Hurst's brother) was posted to the South Staffordshires with WOI rank. Later, he was appointed Director of the RAMC 'staff band', retiring in 1977 with the rank of major. When Clancy became bandmaster in 1930 he had retired from the Army, but carried his WOI rank with him. In short, he was not of a commissioned rank.

Your recollection of the Junkers 88 passing low over Barnstable and Bideford Bay, in front of Saunton Sands Hotel, and landing at Chivenor vaguely stirs in my memory. It would be a lovely piece to post on the history site, but would need more depth and detail to write an account worth posting. Perhaps others remember and can provide more detail. Check the correspondence page where I now publish interesting correspondence. I'll add this exchange.

Art

1 June 2005

Art, Got home late today (Wednesday) and have seen the article [posted on the web at www.achart.ca/hibernian/lives.htm]; very nice. A minor correction; Dad's Christian names were George William, not John. His brother was Frederick John. Apart from that it was strange to see it in print. I am away for a week from this Friday (3rd June) so I will try before I go to get photo done of Dad in Tank Corp uniform. I also have an Army Certificate of Education (First Class) for him from 1933 when he was in India; also, a copy of the relevant page showing his number when he entered Chepstow. Let me know if these are of any interest. If they are I will get them to you. One other request. I had an e-mail from a Mr. Marley in Australia who used to live here in South Wales. I would like to reply to him but have no e-mail address to contact him. This occasionally happens with my computer. Can you assist with an address please? Thanks.

Chris

1 June 2005

Chris, Thanks! I like it too. Before making the correction, I should like to await the arrival of a photograph of your dad and the Army Cert of Education, which would be welcome. The page showing his number at Cheptstow is also worth having – by e-mail is fine if you can manage it. If not and you use regular post, my address is 98 Maria's Quay, Cobourg, Ontario K9A 5R6, Canada. Brian Marley's e-mail addy is brianmarley862@hotmail.com which should find him.

Art

6 June 2005

Art, A brief note. I am at my son's home at the moment – near Oxford. I enclose the photos as promised including one of Fred, who was shot and killed on 1 October 1945. He is the one seated. Dad's mother died of TB and Asthma. Did Peter send you the letter I sent with the other photographs? There were I think small snippets of dad in his early life. The first sweets he recalled having were from a shop damaged in the 1916 uprising. The last time he saw his father was when the 10th Irish Division marched from their barracks to the docks in Dublin to cross to England. When dad died 1 March 1999 he was the last of the original No 1 Group from Cheptsow.

Chris.

12 Jun 2005

Chris, I acknowledge receipt with thanks of your package of photographs. It's obvious from your note that I got a couple of things wrong, particularly the death of your grandmother, which I incorrectly ascribed to the 1919 flu pandemic. I also incorrectly identified the seated figure of the brothers as your father. I'll have the web master make corrections to the text at the earliest opportunity. Meanwhile, thanks for all your help. If you come across further errors I expect you'll let me know.

Art

31 May 2005

Art, I can get a copy of your Sons of the Brave from the University of Toronto library.  Have just found it in the library catalogue. I have found my research on the indentured apprentices from St. Luke's Workhouse, Chelsea and many of the children were sent to Nottingham, to coal mines up north and to cotton and spinning manufacturers in the north (these were mostly girls). I think there was some sort of affiliation between the RMA and the workhouse when apprentices were needed. Anyway, if you or your colleagues need any further information from me, I would be delighted to correspond with them.

Linda

1 June 2005

Linda, Glad to hear of your success getting the SOB book from the U of T library. Re. the apprentices, first, the 1814 Amendment to the Elizabethan Apprentices Act is, we have reason to believe, was the basis on which the RMA at least began indenturing apprentices. This because none were indentured until a year after the amendment was legislated. Secondly, Peter has uncovered evidence via a note in red in the apprentices ledger by which Oldknow circumvented the conditions of the Act to get his cheap labour until the apprentice attained his or her (but mostly her) 21st birthday. Finally, which you might be right about there being 'some sort of affiliation between the RMA and the workhouse' the evidence is that the Heyside journeymen cotton spinners who first used the RMA as a source of apprentices could not get apprentices from the workhouses nearer home. This was because the workhouse overseers were well aware of the appalling conditions under which cotton apprentices worked (see the chapter in the Charity book on the cotton apprentices). If you do come across evidence of affiliation or cooperation between the RMA and similar institutions I'd certainly like to hear about it.

Art

12 June 2005

Peter, Art tells me that your instrument is the euphonium. I have thought to find a selection of pieces for the instruments that my great grand-father would likely have been playing c.1860-80. I am very fond of Berlioz and suppose that he would have used the new sounds very happily. Any ideas?

John

12 June 2005

John, The most popular composers of the period wrote for the instrument. I think of Sullivan's Savoy operas including the Mikado with Wandering Minstrel and Tit Willow. The only time I think that three fingers were totally woven together was with Pineapple Poll, which defeated me. Other music of course will have been scored for the euphonium I have a copy of The Carnival of Venice; the most amazing scoring was a rendering of Czardas, normally played by a gypsy violinist to doting lovers at a table. Most military marches have a tenor solo led by the euphonium, or a counter melody. Examples can be found in the works of Kenneth J. Alford: Standard of St George, There's no place like home, and Colonel Bogey (with its added bawdy lyrics referring to Hitler's breeding possibilities), Voice of the Guns, Army of the Nile, and the many marches of Sousa. Film scores also are represented in 'Bridge on the River Kwai', using the Colonel Bogey march and, among my favourites, The Luftwaffe March from the film The Battle of Britain. A quick check on the net provides the item below, also suggesting the source of many 19th Century composers and melodies played. I must also add, the works of Thomas BIDGOOD, composer of Son's of the Brave, regimental march of the Duke of York's School. Here is part of the commentary to be found at the site quoted:

"However the euphonium has by no means been confined to brass and military bands and has often been employed in the orchestra....In the late 19th century tuba parts in English orchestras were often played by euphoniums and this may account for the lively orchestral tuba parts penned by British composers like Elgar, Bax, Holst, Lambert, Walton, Britten and Malcolm Arnold. Many British light orchestral scores of the late 19th century included a euphonium..."
See www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/July01/euphonium.htm

13 June 2005

Further to my other questions, Art, would the uniform of the 1st Foot Guards in 1840  be what the Coldstream Guards have today. And did the bandsmen have differences?

 John R.

13 June 2005

The history of the Grenadier Guards is to be found at: www.army.mod.uk/grenadier/history/htm. The history of the Coldstream Guards is to be found at www.army.mod.uk/coldstreamguards/history.htm

The uniform of the 1st Foot Guards in 1840 would be about the same as that worn at the Battle of Waterloo (1815) – where they acquired the name 'Grenadier Guards' – with, I imagine, some small changes. The scarlet-coat uniform and Busby as worn today is known as 'regimental dress'. There might be minor differences between the regimental dress of the Grenadier Guards and the Coldstream Guards, but I suspect they are minor. I suggest you check the two web sites given above. I also speculate that you're wondering why A. J. Phasey joined the band of the Coldstream Guards when his father had served in the 1st Foot Guards. I'm pretty sure that was because the bandmaster of the Coldstream Guards through his contacts at the RMA persuaded Phasey to join his band. The Guards in London exerted a strong influence on the RMA through senior officers serving on the board of governors. I can think of no more rational explanation than that.

Art

6 June 2005

I have just found your website and am impressed. My ancestor was at the School in the 1830s and it gives a wonderful picture of the time that he was there. Thank you.

John Roberts

6 June 2005

John, Thanks for the compliment. Who was your ancestor? Can you identify him? Have you found him on Peter Goble's site at www.rma-searcher.co.uk?

Art

6 June 2005

Art, My great-great grandfather was Alfred James Phasey, who became a musician of some small distinction and has a large number of descendants, one of whom, in Australia, gave me your address. I have more info than I can immediately deal with, so have not looked at that website yet. 

John

6 June 2005

John, Thanks for the lead. I've found him: Alfred James Phasey, No. 5275 on the register, entered the RMA at age 5 years 7 months on 23 September 1839, father Pte Thomas Phasey of the Grenadier Guards, mother Mary Phasey, both living when Alfred James entered the RMA. He enlisted in the Coldstream Guards at age 15 on 7 August 1848. His entered the RMA while his parents were still living. Could be to get the boy a half-decent education. Also unusual that he should leave the institution at age 15. Most left at age 14. However, like Henry Lazarus, the clarinetist, he could have been favoured by the school authorities for his musical abilities. Speculation of course. We're interested in everyone who passed through – so to speak!

Art

8 June 2005

Referring to edited copy, Many thanks Art. - some useful comments, which is what a first draft needs.  When you say " A good start to what could be an interesting family history!" I must tell you that for two years the story has been with the editor of Family History (or similar title) awaiting publication. A. J. Phasey has been credited as the inventor of the euphonium and I have worked on that story over the years. I sent a copy of my booklet on the subject to Kneller Hall and was later in touch with distant branches of his (Phasey's) descendants of whom I had been totally unaware.

John

8 June 2005

John, Your contact with us is important. We've been looking at one Phasey (antecedents previously unknown), Professor at Kneller Hall in 1865. Go to www.achart.ca/york/professors.htm and there you'll see him among the college staff in the front row. He is obviously your forebear. I came across A. J. Phasey in the admissions register, but figured he would have been too young to qualify for Kneller Hall. I was wrong. Please tell me on what basis you credit him inventor of the euphonium. As for your comment and question about numbers and coping, the school authorities had strict rules for who could enter and who couldn't. The three orders of priority are given somewhere on my site, in the intro. But no, being an orphan was only at the top of the qualification list.

Art        

June 28, 2005

Art, I thoroughly enjoyed reading the article on your website on Alfred James Phasey. Many thanks. It mentioned in the article about an Obituary in the Oldham Chronicle on 15 August 1888 for him. However, I have since made enquiries to the Oldham Chronicle Archives for a copy of it and they have searched through that paper from 15th-20th and have found no Obituary for him. I have his death certificate which confirms that he died on 17th August 1888 in Chester, age 54 years. Do you have a copy of the said Obituary that you could forward to me? I will make a few more enquiries to see if I can confirm it for you.

Debbie

28 June 2004

Debbie, I'm glad you found the article worth reading. Now to correct an error. Information given us as fact turned out to be untrue, changed, corrected, retracted. Reference to the Oldham Chronicle is a good example. Since posting the piece we have had to revise the text here and there, some editorial fault, but most not. The Oldham Chronicle has been changed to the Cheshire Observer. I revised the obit. date to 17 August 1888 from 15 August 1888, which was obviously incorrect, but the revised publication date is questionable too. Not even The Times would publish an obituary on the date of death of a subject (unless there was a clairvoyant on staff because newspapers went to press in the small hours of the night – so work that one out). It might be wise if you're contacting the Observer to suggest the 18 August 1888 or later for a possible data of pub. I am pleased to have confirmation from your copy of his death certificate that put him at age 54, which is what we worked out from the RMA ledgers. See also the copy of a letter from the Royal Archives in confirmation of the death certificate you have. If you come across any bloopers, be sure to tell me. I loathe publishing specious information.

Art

13 June 2005

Art, With reference to our exchanges (Re. Captain Harry Bloomer), we have not forgotten your request. My dad produced pages of hand-written memoirs, which are almost impossible to read! We are working our way through this manuscript and in a few days will email you some extracts that you can work on. We will be in touch soon.

Sheelagh Gray

13 June 2005

Sheelagh, Lots of time. Thanks for remembering all the same. If you look at my web site - particularly that which deals the Royal Hibs School (see www.achart.ca/hibernian) - you'll see what Peter Goble of Harrogate and I have done to resurrect what is yet known about the school. You might have met Frank Hawkins when he was still of this world. I'm now keeping my promise to provide a history of the school. Therefore, information from any quarter is welcome. Peter runs a separate site that deals with the admissions registers and statistical data at http://www.rhms-searcher.co.uk/ Given the way the web works, once the information is posted it is not going to sink into oblivion because someone somewhere is gathering and storing every scrap of info that appears. Take your time and I'll expect something from you when it arrives.

Art

30 May 2005

Art, Thank you for sending me your book. It was here when I returned home from England. I have read it with great interest and I may be able to shed some light on the northern apprentices sent from the RMA.  Some of the names you mention of the employers seem to ring a bell. However, I have to find my files on the Chelsea Workhouse to confirm my intuition. Will get back to you on this. Meanwhile, I would like to purchase a copy of your Sons of the Brave. Please let me know the price, postage, etc. and I will send you a cheque.

My further research on the Royal Victoria Patriotic Asylum fits nicely into the gap left by the curtailment of girl pupils at the RMA. In fact I came across a note from the Commissioners of the RVPA re. an interview they had with the Commissioners of the RMA about setting up the school for girls and the "problems" encountered by the RMA! Look forward to hearing from you, and thank you again for sending me the book. 

30 May 2005

Linda, Welcome home! I'm pleased you enjoyed The Charity of Mars. It has a few blunders but, by and large, has lasting value as a social record. The Sons of the Brave is now out of print. I'm often asked for it, but the chances of it being re-printed are slim. The best way of getting a copy is on the bibliographic web from which copies are available from between $20 and $25 U.S.

There are other ways in which we can help. I should think that a copy of Peter Goble's CD of the RMA to about 1858 is worth having. It includes the girls as well as the boys, their fathers' units and apprenticeship information. Peter has been photocopying the RMA and RHMS registers including the correspondence book from the Southampton Branch to which the girls and infants were sent until the institution closed, which is where your research appears to come in. The material includes information re. the indentured apprenticeships, the cotton apprentices et al. If you bring the PICT0111.jpg on screen and zoom in you will find it is quite readable. The one attached is a sample page from the correspondence book. I'm including Peter in this exchange because he has 'ownership' of the images, which I'm now reviewing to write more articles on the apprenticeship programme. For this purpose, the July 1814 amendment to the original Apprentices Act passed early the reign of Queen Elizabeth is an important document. It was the basis on which the authorities of the RMA wrote indentures for apprenticeships.

Another research warrior into the condition of cotton apprentices of the early nineteenth at one particular mill, Cressbrook Mill, is Jean Stone of Cressbrook Village. We exchange information and, I believe, she could be an important contact for your in writing your thesis. Hence, I'm sending her a copy of this response. Check www.cressbrook.com/citydesk/ to see the results of her work.

Art