Army education
Copyright
Professor A. J. Phasey
Royal Hibernians

Hi, I was wondering if you have a military program for kids in Canada? Please contact me if you do. Thanks,

Rebecca Pickles

4 February 2006

Rebecca, I regret to tell you that we do not. This is a history site. I recommend that you search the web for U.S. military schools. There are no such institutions of the type I believe you are looking for in Canada.

Art

6 February 2006

Dear Mr. Cockerill, I was most interested to see your site and to this end I believe that I may have something to offer. I am the grandson of Major James Ryce Clyde Cosgrove (deceased 08.11.1977) and Eileen Mary Margaret Cosgrove nee Luscombe (deceased 08.04.1980) who had both devoted most of their lives to Army Education. It would perhaps be of interest to you that I/We are also descendants of Ensign Charles Ewart who fought most valiantly at the Battle off Waterloo. As far as I know from my records, my grandmother 'outranked' my grandfather because her military rank would have been brigadier; thus, when in uniform, my grandfather addressed my grandmother as 'Ma'am'. It would be wonderful to hear from you especially if you have any further information regarding my grandparents. I make this request because, during the course of the years and many changes of home, many photos and records have been lost. I look forward to hearing from you and remain, most sincerely,

Peregrine J. H. Cosgrove

6 February 2006

Peregrine, Thanks for the contact. I'm interested in anyone connected with, and topics related to, army education. For that reason I'd be fascinated to hear more about your g-parents and their careers in the Army Education Corps. (My first wife, deceased, was a seconded teacher to Middle East Command, which is, of course, another matter. Nevertheless it partly explains my interest.)

Anything you can tell me or photographs you might be able and willing to supply could provide the basis of an interesting article on their training experience. I'd be surprised if you have not had contact with the RAEC Association, membership of which is limited to ex-serving personnel. As you have probably noted, I have written extensively on the subject, mostly in connection with the creation and operation of the Royal Military Asylum (1801-1892) in which the seeds of military education were planted and flourished. My colleague, Peter Goble, is working on the earliest records of the Normal School, begun in 1846 to train schoolmaster sergeants. We are therefore far from exhausting the source material available to us. An associate researcher and former public school headmaster is researching the Le Marchant and Wellington connection with the Royal Hibernian school, Dublin, so you can get some idea of the interest in military education.

Relations with the RAEC Association are not that bright. I believe they are rather ticked off that amateurs are encroaching on their territory, although the reasons for this conclusion are a little too complicated to get into. That said, I should be most interested to hear from you further. [I take it from your server-country designation that you're in Denmark or, perhaps, Germany. I get mixed up with them, though I should. We get messages in from all quarters.]

My colleague might find the Cosgrove name in his records, but not, I think, Luscombe. Army schoolmistresses were trained elsewhere than at the Normal School, Chelsea.

When you write of Ensign Charles Ewart who fought at Waterloo, I take it you're referring to Sgt. Ewart of the Scots Greys who captured the eagle and standard of the 45th French Regiment of the Line and was afterwards given an ensigncy. If I'm correct – I'm writing from memory – he was a valiant soldier.

7 February 2006

Art, At last a little more detail for the data base. I have checked the data collated, sadly as you know lacking about 90% of the ASMC. Unfortunately, the name COSGROVE has yet to be added. There was one COSGROVE admitted to the RMA in 1815, I have attached a PDF file of the details.

Peter

The material I sent you is my copyright. In your correspondence column you refer to joint copyright which makes material on your website free to download. That was never my intention.

Vera Lowe

9 February 2006

The passage to which you mistakenly refer is, I believe - I'm open to correction, but not  dispute - '...data and copy ... published in ... The Irish Sword, the Journal of The Society of Army Historical Research and the Genealogical Soc. of Ireland' that appears in the January correspondence. Specifically, this means articles published in journals as distinct from those that appear on the web. Nevertheless, to make public an unequivocal policy of this web site, everything that appears on the www.achart.ca site is available to anyone who wishes to use it in any form or by any means (electronic, mechanical, recording or otherwise) free of charge with the usual courtesy of attribution, provided it is for not-for-profit purposes.

Art Cockerill

Your article on Professor A J Phasey contains hints that there is more information available in the original RMA admissions register than is shown on your website - for example, whether or not each of the parents was alive, the father's rank and the boy's role in the army if he subsequently enlisted (i.e. band boy in Phasey's case). How can I find out this type of information in relation to the following children, listed in the Coldstream Guards list?

- Edward, Henry and Margaret Darkin (admitted 11/06/1804, 14/04/1804 and 17/04/1809 respectively). Thank you in anticipation of any help you may be able to offer -

Peter Darkin.

5 February 2006

Peter, Data as requested. Try WO143-17. RMA Male admissions 1803-1826. Held at the National Archives. Kew. Pte Robert and Sara are noted as being alive at the date of each admission.

Peter

Thank you for your e-mail of the 17 January 06. In answer to your question, James & Sarah McDermot were married in the C of E church of St Mary Major in Exeter, Devon, England. If James was R.C. perhaps he would have deferred to her wishes. Could you please help me with a few more questions? You mentioned in your e-mail about being 'indentured'. Would there be any records of these? At the school did they leave at a certain age? Being in England (High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire) could you tell me if your book The Charity Of Mars is still in print. If so, is it possible to obtain a copy in this country? Another question, what usually happened to boys with military ambitions, did they go into a local regiment of either foot or cavalry before being drafted into an English regiment? (At this time of course there was fear of invasion by Bonaparte). On the marriage entry I sent you can you make out the third signature? With your historical knowledge could you tell me how they would have learnt to write, other than at the school at that time ?

Grantley

10 February 2006

Grantley, It is necessary to bring Peter Goble into this exchange because, having transcripts of the records and providing all kinds of genealogical information on his web site at www.rma_searcher.co.uk he is better equipped to answer some of your questions. First, however, as you are in High Wycombe, you would be far better ordering a copy of The Charity of Mars directly from Peter. I'll ask him to contact you directly re. this because I don't know what he charges for packing and mailing. Now to your questions. Yes, there are extant records of indentured apprenticeships. In the case of the Royal Hibernian Military School, however, there is a problem because most records were destroyed during the London Blitz of 1940. I believe Peter has a record of some RHMS indentured apprenticeships. As to your second question, most boys at the military schools, until the late 1940s, left between 14 and 14½ years of age. A good many enlisted for military service, for others indentured apprenticeships were arranged. These two subjects are discussed at length in the Charity book. Boys often joined their fathers' regiments, but not always. Whether the went into a 'local regiment' or the cavalry, the enlisted, which meant that once having 'taken the King's (or Queen's) shilling' they went where they were sent. From the very beginning of the opening of the Royal Military Asylum (1803) or, in the case of the Royal Hibernians, Phoenix Park (1765), both boys and girls – as long as girls were admitted to these two military institutions – were taught to write, by the method of monitorial teaching until 1846 and, after that year, in a 'model school' under instruction devised by Dr. du Sautoy and John MacLeod, both outstanding scholars. Lastly – and I do apologize for this neglect on my part – would you very much mind transmitting again a copy of the document with the 'third signature' you have asked me to unravel. I cannot locate it in my files. I've filed it somewhere, but where is a mystery.   

Art  

10 February 2006

Art, Thank you for your e-mail of the 17th Jan. 06 In answer to your question, James & Sarah McDermot were married in the C of E church of St Mary Major in Exeter, Devon, England. If James was R.C. perhaps he would have deferred to her wishes. Could you please help me with a few more questions? You mentioned in your e-mail about being 'indentured'.  Would there be any records of these? At the school did they leave at a certain age ? Being in England (High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire) could you tell me if your book "The Charity Of Mars" is still in print, if so, is it possible to obtain a copy in this country? Another question, what usually happened to boys with military ambitions, did they go into a local regiment of either foot or cavalry before being drfted into an English regiment? ( at this time of course there was fear of invasion by Bonaparte). On the marriage entry I sent you can you make out the third signature? With your historical knowledge could you tell me how they would have learnt to write, other than at the school at that time ?

Grantley

10 February 2006

Grantley, Judging by the handwriting, he has had plenty of practice, the loop of the j is a perfect 6 and the down stroke almost perfection. I would have a good guess at James Doyle and Charles Jeanes or Charles Seanes. There are two stabs at the signature, the two witness two marriages. Almost 80% of the boys discharged from the RHMS Volunteered to the Army. Few to a trade have been entered. There are no records found yet, re the females. I do have a few copies of the Charity of March, available @ £15 + £1.50 postage.

Peter 

20 February 2006

Not lost but found, thanks very much. My great grandfather is Alfred Alma Capon. I know some of his subsequent military history and have a photograph of him. The mystery I'm hoping you might be able to shed some light on is why he was sent to the RHMA rather than the RMA. His late Royal Artillery father was English. Any help on this would be much appreciated.

Stephen Capon

20 February 2006

Stephen, Thanks for the contact. We are always pleased to hear of a successful search of our web sites. The most probable answer is that although his father was English,  he was serving in Ireland at the time of Alfred's admission. The interesting thing about your message, is his name Alma, now an accepted female name, and there were many in the years that followed the Battle of Alma, there was also an Hyacinth at the RMA. I have been plodding away with the follow on ledger, WO 143-78. This  contains added detail, as this new data also continues into the follow on ledger WO143-79. This detail, the Body Mass Index, I have retained, to be covered in a separate study. Alfred's are there, so you can now do a comparison, with the modern junk food eating children of today. We are searching also for images of the Hibernian boys in uniform. Any help would be appreciated.

Peter Goble