Roll of RMA children
Sir Percy Sillitoe
Thomas Bidgood connections
3 January 2006
I am trying to find information on a Robert Dickson/Dixon Hill who
was a schoolmaster at the college. He also worked at Army schools in
India. I think he would have been in Dublin early in the 1900s. Can
you tell me where I could find information on Army Schoolmasters please?
Also interested to see your surname as I have Cockerills in my family
tree. Henry Mylam Cockerill was convicted to 7 years transportation
to the then Van Diemens Land in the early 1800s.
3 January 2006
Rosemary, I am passing your inquiry to my colleague, who has the available
extant records of the Royal Hibs. As to the Cockerills in your family
tree I'm delighted the criminal element were given a fighting chance
in Van Diemen's Land and didn't languish in Newgate or, even worse, perish
3 January 2006
Rosemary, Information re the Corps of Army Schoolmasters, is proving
difficult to find. I have started a data base of Schoolmasters who
appear in the Census of UK from 1850 to 1901. I've also checked the
RHMS, Dublin, census for 1901 and 1910. (History of the RHMS.
Geo O'Reilly 20010.) The name Hill does not appear in either. If he
was at the RHMS in 1901 or 1910, it is possible that he may have had
quarters out of the RHMS. The list also includes those who received
campaign medals in the 14-18 War. I did not discover a Hill among them.
I'm in contact with the curator of the Logistics Corps Museum, which
includes the Schoolmaster Corps. His email is firstname.lastname@example.org He's
aware of the lack of information and is collecting and re-cataloguing
the data held at the museum. I think it is time I set the Schoolmaster
data base up on my web site, perhaps others, like you, will provide details
otherwise lost. Thank you for your enquiry. I shall keep you in my ASM
folder and, should anything definite turn up, I will inform you.
12 January 2006
Duke of York's Military School enquiry: Is this the correct email address?
I have an historical enquiry regarding my uncle who I believe was in
charge of the school around 1911-1914.
Fiona Archontoulis (Brisbane, Australia)
12 January 2006
If by 'in charge of the school' you mean the commandant, the Board
of Governors were retired officers apppointed to the post. Our records
indicate that the Commandant from 1910 – 1913 was Colonel Arthur Morris
C.M.G., D.S.O. of the Royal Irish Regiment; from 1913 – 1914 Colonel
George Nugent M.V.O. of the Grenadier Guards and the Irish Guards (he
served in both regiments); and from 1914 – 1919, Lt. Col. John
Dyke C.B.E., M.V.O. of The Queens Regiment. If he is any one of these
gentlemen, I should like to hear from you further. On the other hand,
if he is none of them, but is connected with the school in some other
capacity we might perhaps be able to identify him for you. I should,
however, point out that for the duration of WWI, the school premises
at Dover were evacuated to Hutton, Essex, for use as a transit station
for personnel to and from the Western Front. The premises would have
been under the command of a regular serving military officer.
Art W. Cockerill
12 January 2006
Art, I should clarify - I understand he was in charge of the DOY Hospital
during Colonel George Nugent's time as Commandant. My Uncle was Sergeant
Major Alfred Fowler. I have a letter of reference signed by Brig.
Gen. Nugent for Alfred Fowler when he applied for the post of
temporary Quartermaster at the Liverpool Merchants Mobile Hospital
from 1915-1919. I have attached a photo of Alfred and his wife Lucinda
taken I believe at DOY in 1911. I think that Alfred was involved in
another capacity at DOY before being in charge of the hospital... I
am also enquiring as to whether any births occurred at the DOY hospital
around those years? Looking forward to hearing from you again.
12 January 2006
Fiona, Thanks for the additional information as well as the photograph
of Sergeant Major Fowler and his wife. I should like to use it if we
can dig up enough information for an article on him. To this end, any
information you can provide on him, his family and military career would
be welcome. You write of his possible involvement with the school in
some other capacity. Is it possible that he was a student at the school?
If so, that would probably be when the institution existed under the
name of the Royal Military Asylum (1803-1892). It was renamed the Duke
of York's RMS in 1892. I'll ask my colleague Peter by copy of this note
if he can trace his name in the 'admissions register'. If he is listed
you'll be in luck, for we'll have information on his parents and the
military unit in which his father served. Attached is a copy of Chapter
Ten from the Play Up Dukies book by George Shorter, which deals
with the evacuation of the school during WWI. This might interest you.
The other history, The Charity of Mars, covers only the 1803
to 1892 period.
15 January 2006
I would be very grateful for your advice regarding the following
problem: My great great grandfather, John William Hanson, enlisted
in the 25th Light Dragoons (previously the 29th Light Dragoons)
on 31 July 1809, at Maidstone, Kent. According to the description
book, he was aged 15 years, and he gave his birthplace as Tourney
(sic) Flanders, and his trade as labourer. He had two tours to
India, eventually dying there in 1832. He was promoted to Corporal
in 1811 and Sergeant in 1814. His wife and children accompanied
him on his second tour, and his youngest son was born on a raft
on the River Ganges. Despite 22 years of searching, I have been
unable to discover John Hanson’s parentage, although
I wonder if he may have been the son of a soldier involved in the French
Revolutionary Wars – I know that there were substantial numbers
of British troops in and around Tournai during 1794. Despite giving his
trade on enlistment as labourer, John was clearly very well educated.
I have a typed transcript of a letter written by him on his first voyage
to India in 1810 when he would have been 16 years, which indicates a
very high standard of literacy. Unfortunately the letter is addressed
to “Dear Brothers and Friends” so no real clue there.
If his father was in the army at Tournai, do you think his high
standard of education could have been provided by the army? I did
wonder if he could have been orphaned, and sent to an army boarding
school, but the only one I have discovered that appears to have
been operational at about the right time is the Royal Hibernian
in Ireland. The other possibility is that he was born in Tournai
because he was Belgian, but again, his competent use of English
appears to belie this.
15 January 2006
Hilary, I've considered your question and speculation and offer this
comment. It is possible that John Hanson was the son of a soldier of
the French Revolutionary wars (1793-1815). Your speculation seems reasonable,
considering the Duke of York commanded the expedition to Tornai, Flanders
in 1793, the place where the army was in winter quarters. However,
that's as far as it goes. If you g-g-g-father was 15 in 1809, his YOB
would be 1794, which is why I'd agree that a British soldier of York's
army could have been his father. However, when the RMA opened in August
1803, he would have been ten years of age – again, possible for entry
to the RMA, but not probable. Besides, as I wrote earlier, the first
Hanson admitted to the RMA was not until 1837, which rules out any connection
with the RMA. In my opinion – Peter Goble may have other ideas – your
best bet for picking up a trail is via the 'morning reports' of the
25th Light Dragoons beginning with the day after the date of his enlistment,
31 July 1809. You might also check the morning reports for 1832 to
determine the date of his death. Morning reports are kept in the National
Archives at Kew. These reports give the state of the unit including
known detail of every officer, NCO and trooper (in the case of cavalry):
Name, rank, DOB, date of enlistment, occupation on enlistment, place,
disposition. Making contact with whoever operates the unit (or its
successor) museum might be another useful avenue. Frankly, I don't
think we can help you any further. If you can visit Kew, you will find
people at the military history desk very willing to help guide you.
16 January 2006
This is an altogether fascinating branch of my family. John William
Hanson’s wife Louisa, nee Graham, her parents, siblings and daughters
were members of a little known non conformist sect – the Muggletonians – whose
archive is at the British Library. I’m not sure whether John was
a Muggletonian – I have always doubted that he was, although
his writing about the earthquake is pasted in the Muggletonian Book
of Songs, and perhaps the fact that his children were not baptised
until just before they left for India may be significant. I also wonder
whether his letter being addressed to his Brothers and Friends may
also indicate a religious connection. He could have been writing to
soldiers still at Maidstone Barracks (although he left for India almost
immediately following enlistment) or perhaps his biological brothers.
know if John’s sons Henry Frederick and John Ganges were Muggletonians,
but presumably they wouldn’t have been admitted to the RMA if it
had been known that their mother was not a member of the established
church? Louisa was financially supported by the sect after her return
from India, and married another sect member some years later. The sect
had some fairly (by today’s standards) quirky beliefs, but they
appear to have been very charitable to poorer members and to have respected
each other irrespective of financial status or gender. The letter from
the Julia is lovely isn’t it? It has really brought John to life
as a lively, intelligent fifteen year old. I only received it a couple
of weeks ago, from Sharon Hicks, and am still amazed at John’s
standard of literacy.
16 January 2006
16 January 2006
Hilary, I was discussing with Peter your interesting message arrived
this morning. He is answering you directly with his observations, so
I'll not second guess what he has to say. Nevertheless, this whole
subject of the Hanson and Fields is fascinating enough to consider
writing a short piece of them for our web site. We get an ocean of
data from inquiries as you might guess. Not all of them, however, are
interesting. Some on the other hand are worth writing about – and
this one of the Hanson and Fields is in that category. That letter
written from the Julia makes interesting reading, too. I'll wait to
read what Peter has to say.
Art, Thank you very much, not only for your swift and helpful
advice, but also for forwarding my e-mail to Peter who has come
up with some new and fascinating information regarding John William’s sons'
education. Both my parents and I have visited Kew (although not for many
years) and have transcribed the details about John Hanson’s service
in the 25th Light Dragoons in WO25 303 Page 119 – Indexed Description
Book and John’s record of Promotions and Reductions during the
period 1.9.1810 to 21.10.1819 and WO12 1502 – 1511 which describes
his movements. We also have similar details for his second tour of India
with the 11th Dragoons, from WO12 989 – 998, covering the period
3.12.1819 - to his death in hospital at Landour on 17.7.1832.
reports sound like something more detailed though? I think perhaps
I need to go to Kew again!
With regard to John William Hanson’s parentage, I have tried
the records of foreign births and deaths at the end of the C18th
on the 1837 site, and many years ago, wrote to the local registry
office in Tournai, but with no success. Given the picture drawn
of the circumstances of families on the march, given in Following the Drum by
Annabel Venning, which I am currently reading, I think my search
for those sort of records was probably overly optimistic! I am
sending you a couple of attachments. The first is a typed copy
of a letter in the possession of my distant cousin (recently discovered)
Sharon Hicks, who is directly descended from John Hanson’s
son Henry Frederick. This was written by John William Hanson from
aboard the Julia bound for India.
Although this is undated, we know it must have been his outward journey
on his first trip in 1809, when he was about 15 years old, since the
second time, he travelled on The Maitland. Unfortunately,
we have no idea of the identity of the recipient of the letter,
or even of the transcriber, although it could have been Henry Frederick’s
son William as suggested in the note at the top of the page. However,
the note is incorrect regarding the earthquake experienced by the
Hanson family, as John died in 1832. In fact, the document in a
bible (actually a song book) to which the note refers, is in my
possession (very difficult to read), and I have a handwritten transcript
of it (attached) again giving the incorrect date of the earthquake
in question. I have been able to confirm, from the memoirs of another
dragoon held at the British Army Museum, however, that there was
an earthquake on 24 October 1831, so presumably the transcriber,
like us, was unable to fully read the date on the original.
19 January 2006
Peter, Three weeks ago you helped me with finding details of my grandad
who entered the Royal Military Asylum in 1885 and advised me to contact
Lt. Col. Say down at Dover in the hope that further records may be
am pleased to say that I was successfull in that I received eight
A3 pages of information on my grandfather, copies of his admission, Petition
and Certificate, Certificates of Recommendations, Baptism and letters
from his father etc, which included information I had not known about. The
service I received from Lt. Col. Say was excellent in every aspect
so naturally I shall be sending a donation for school funds. I would
like to thank you for your time and effort in helping me to obtain
the above, without help from one another we would not get very far.
26 January 2006
Hi, My grandfather attended the Military Asylum in 1901 and I have
a copy of the centenary book that was obviously issued that year. There
are a lot of photos in it and I would be happy to copy them if you
think it would be of any interest.
Jennifer, Thanks for the contact. I'll happily accept your offer and
look forward to receiving it. The two recipients on the cc line are Brian
Marley of Melbourne, Australia, and Peter Goble in the UK. Please tell
me your grandfather's history. Do you have photographs of him we might
use? A bio perhaps! With his name, we might be able to tell you something
about him and his parents of whom you might not be aware.
27 January 2006
Hi, I am trying to find some information regarding my grandfather
George William Hanna who was born 8 September, 1880 in Westminster,
London, and is, I believe, the Geo W. Harma aged 10 of Westminster, London,
shown on page 26 RG12/66 (1891). His father was William John Hanna,
who he died 5 March 1890 and had been a soldier in the 27th Foot (No.
892) (joined 26 March 1859) and 37th Floot (1014 from November l, 1861). There
do not appear to be any records on your site for him. I think
his brother John may also have been at the school.
27 January 2006
Jennifer, I should have realized that your ref. was the Census on
my web. but as I have yet to transcribe after 1880 I could not have
known of the transcription error. This is the entry that seems to match
your request. Entry No. 10,099 William J HANNAN, He was a Protestant
admitted 28 November 1890. His father was A Gunner in the Royal Artillery.
Father's first name was John, deceased at the date of admission as was
the boy's Mother Martha. Wm was discharged from the RMA 15 December 1894
and enlisted into the 67th Foot. Please confirm that this is
your G-g-father, and I will make sure the names entered are correct.
Roll of RMA children
Ms. Hughes, You should by now have received a package that included
a copy of The Charity of Mars book and the 'Roll of children'
sponsored by, or volunteered to, the Royal Sappers & Miners or
the Corps of Royal Engineers, both with our compliments. I will mail
a photocopy of the General Gordon statue. Its identification is no
longer necessary. I now have the information I need. I have mailed
it as a courtesy copy to the museum in case it is not in your collection.
Thank you for suggesting I contact the Corps Secretary of Institution
of Royal Engineers regarding a review of the book. It would mean having
my colleague pack and mail a copy for review. To the review editor,
I should think it would be just another book arriving gratis in the
hope some hapless writer might get a review. The book was a gift for
the bi-centenary of the Duke of York's School with an introduction
by HRH the Duke of Kent. A review is not that important. I was mistaken
in thinking the museum staff would be in close enough contact with The Sapper journal
- if that's still the name of the Corps publication – to loan
the copy sent for a review. As this is evidently not the case, please
forget that I broached the subject.
2 January 2006
I came across your site and that of Mr. Goble today and found one of
the sons of the man I am researching. The entry was for the Royal Hibernian
Index, CO3/27; Name, James Clout; Father's regiment, 4th Light Dragoons;
Ledger Note, Army Volunteer; Date, 6/11/1851
His father, George Clout, served with the 4th Light Dragoons (1829
to 1853), including ten years in Ireland (1831-1841) and five years
in Ireland (1846-1851). In India, he and his first wife, Jane, had
three sons: George (b1832),
Thomas (b 1834) and James (b 1836). After the family's return to England
in 1842 Jane Clout died. I suspect this was during his posting to Ireland,
but have so far been unable to find her death in Irish records. This
left George, a farrier, with three teenage boys on his hands. The two
eldest sons became farriers: George in the 4th Light Dragoons, Thomas
as a civilian. George enlisted in the 4th Light Dragoons after they
returned to England in 1891 and served for a time in the band. This
is the entry from the 3rd quarter of the Pay and Muster Rolls of 1851
showing the entry for George senior, and his son's enlistment:
Regt. No: 587; Name: George Clout; OP: 92 days; GCP: 31 days @ 4d;
GCP: 61 days @5d
Voucher: No. 9: Record of Service Pte. Clout; Remarks: Entitled to 5
GCP 1st August; Stationed at Hampton Ct.
Recruits who have joined during this quarter: Regt. No: 1491; Name:
George Clout; Present: 14 07 1851 - 30 09 1851; Allowance while in
stationary quarters: 54 days; Enlisted: 14 07 1851; Age: 19 and 3/12;
Height: 5’ 7
and three quarters; Enlisted at: Hampton Court HQ; Bounty paid to recruit: £5
15s 6d; Paid to the party also for attesting or conducting recruits:
13s 6d; Stationed: Hampton Ct.
George remarried, Margaret Kerwin, when stationed at Athlone in 1848
and had four more children. The eldest born was born in Dublin,
the other three in Ipswich where George was discharged having broken
his leg after slipping on the ice on the barrack square. His son James
enlisted in the 4th Light Dragoons in Dublin in 1851, which has always
seemed a little odd, as his family had been posted to London by then.
It is curious that he would have been left alone as he was only young.
Finding him in the military school is an interesting twist. This is
the entry of his enlistment in the 4th quarter of the 1851 Pay and
Recruits who have joined during this quarter: Regt. No: 1514;
Name: James Clout; Present: 21 11 1851 - 31 12 1851; Special Authority.
Vouchers: Nos. 23, 24, 25, 26; Reports of Recruits; Enlisted: 06
11 1851; Age: 15; Height: 4’ 11 and three quarters;
Enlisted at: Dublin District HQ; Bounty paid to recruit: £2 2s
- Paid to the party also for attesting or conducting recruits: 13s 6d;
Stationed: Woolwich &c
James served in the regimental band as a trumpeter. He was reduced to
private just before the Crimean War in which both boys served. Meanwhile
George senior joined the Turkish Contingent as Farrier Major and spent
the war on the other side of the Crimean peninsular at Kertch. After
the war the boys got into trouble: George was court-martialed for desertion
and medically discharged in 1861; James was court-martialed five times
and finally discharged with ignominy in 1863. George had gone to Bermuda
in mid-1857 as an assistant warder in the penal colony there. After his
dismissal in 1858 he seems never to have returned to England, much to
the chagrin of his wife and four children. He died in the Bermuda poor
house in 1869. Within a year his second family changed their surname
In view of what I have found out today about James and the military
school, I was wondering if the records are complete for the late 1840s
to early 1850s or whether the other two boys might also appear somewhere?
Would it have been usual for a widower to have three boys living with
him whilst trying to carry out his duties? The entry for James at the
RHMS doesn't have an admittance date so it may be that he as only there
from the time his family left Ireland in mid April 1851, until his enlistment.
Following their discharges, nothing more is known of either young George
2 December 2006
Wendy, I've added the message in your second to this response for my
colleague, Peter Goble, who is expert with the extant records of the
Royal Hibernian School. If he has the data he'll find the entry quicker
than I could. Thanks for your info. Every bit helps us reconstruct the
history of the Royal Hibs piece by piece.
11 January 2006
Peter, I've been entering info. into my database as it's too difficult
with all the multiple names to work out who is who from my lists. So
far I've recorded only the 4LD BDMs [4th Light Dragoons births, deaths,
marriages] in India from 1831 to 1841. I still have to extract the
entries for 1821 to 1830. Also I've recorded some complete regimental
P&M rolls, for 1831, 1839 and 1841, but only two of these three
years have been entered on my database so far. [1839 and 1841]. I also
have the passenger list for the regiment arriving in India in 1821/1822,
but haven't yet entered that in the database. I also have partial P&M
Rolls for other years, especially of the men who were in George's troop,
or who were with James and George Clout junior in the 4LD band, such
as the O'Brien boys. I have some info. on my website, but haven't
yet updated it with my latest London gleanings. The 1831 P&M is
the last to list everyone by troops as opposed to ranks, and includes
the thirty men who arrived that year with George Clout. The 1839 list
shows those who went to Scinde and Ghuznee in the 1st Afghan War. Half
the regiment went, the rest remained in Kirkee. And the 1841 list shows
those who returned to England on the Repulse and the Mary,
and those who transferred to other Indian-based regiments. At the end
of their tour in 1841, a large number of men transferred to the 14th
Light Dragoons, who were replacing them in India. A few more went to
the 15th Hussars and the 3rd Light Dragoons. Many men who transferred
to the 14LD were killed in battles with the Sikhs, or were caught up
in the Mutiny. They had a much bloodier time of it in India than the
4LDs did, thereby producing more orphans for the schools I suppose.
Wendy, I thought I was the only balm pot with databases and an
urge to add more and more detail. Your gleanings amazed me. I have yet
to enter the RMA & RHMS from 1880 to 1920, but I am getting around
to it. Thanks for the added detail, I think the best approach is to add
an asterisk to the names and then refer * Wendy's web site. I have to
wait to adjust all pages, nearing 3000 pdf's, until I have added the
next two ledgers. I came across a death at the RHMS on my mother's birthday,
then another, finally there were 19, all on the same date. A cholera
outbreak at the school, blamed on the boys eating unripe fruit. Without
this ability, this would have been missed.
17 January 2006
Art, Thank you for your letter of November. Because I could not find
the answers to my questions on the Royal Hibs history, I have attached
a copy of the church marriage entry for James McDermot and Sarah Cheese.
In it you will see that he signs his own name, not only that but the
two witnesses also sign their names. One of which, James Doyle, I've
seen in the regimental musters that were taken in India. Now it is
these signatures that set me wondering about them having attended the
school, being that writing wasn't at that time (1780's) a common accomplishment.
My other question of the apprenticeship to become a farrier, I
am a little doubtful of this at the school. Could you please let me
know of the sort of social background for those times (1780's) that
would have given them the education to learn to read and write.
17 January 2006
Grantley, You've jogged my memory. Now I know who you are and understand
your inquiry. I've discussed this with my colleague Peter. First, education.
All the children admitted to the Royal Hibs were taught to read and write,
no question about that. If James attended it would explain why he wrote
well. The system used for teaching children in those days was probably
a version of the Lancaster monitorial system. (The teacher delivered
the lesson to selected children and who, in turn, taught their fellow
students. Hence the word and meaning of 'monitor') I covered this subject
in my book The Charity of Mars. The system was changed about
the turn of the 19th Century, but was not that different.
Next, trades training. Children of the Hibs were taught a trade, both
girls and boys: tailoring, boot and shoe making, needlework
and sewing etc. Farrier could well have been one of the trades. They
were also 'indentured' from the age of fourteen. Again, see my book
for the variety of trades to which these children were indentured.
My commentary on the social mileau of that period is speculative. I
should think your Irish historians would be far better qualified to
dwell on the subject. The Royal Hibs board of governors and the supporters
of the Hibernian school were, of course, part of the Protestant ascendancy,
so there'd be a rather different experience for the children of the
military establishment than, say, the general Roman Catholic population
who were left to fend their own devices. The Hib children would certainly
have been able to read and write by the time they left the school;
and would have had enough training to take care of themselves. We do
know from the meagre records we have that only some, but not a majority,
of the boys enlisted for military service.
You're right about the relative rarity of literacy among the working
population (I heard from colleagues in Ireland that even the priests
were for the most part illiterate, which is why so many parish registers
were destroyed and Ireland left bereft of decent genealogical records
- incredible, but that's the way it was). This said, the church marriage
entry for James and McDermot and Sarah Cheese was most interesting. The
writing style doesn't surprise me. Children were taught to write in the
copperplate style on their slates. Was the church registry you copied
of Protestant or Roman Catholic origin?
29 January 2006
Sir/Madam, My grandfather was a Chelsea Pensioner. He joined
the Boys Army(?) at about 11 years of age. We believe he went to the
Royal Hibernian Miltary School. These are the details that I have on
name: Christopher Woollams; born, 27/8/1890; North Staffs Regiment;
Service no. 506991; Address, 9 Kings Street, Burslem, Staffordshire
I would be most grateful if you could supply me with any information
on my grandfather or the Boys Army?
Ian, I have checked the RHMS Ledger, the name WOOLAM does not appear.
Neither in the RMA ledger for the time frame given, born 1890. If you
let me know the reference you are using I may be able to help more
30 January 2006
Peter, The name is WOOLLAMS not WOOLAM. The information
I have is that he joined a Boys army, which must have been after
1901 because he is still at home according to the 1901 census.
His parents are not on the census; his brother Frederick is the
head of the house. Family accounts say he went to Dover or Wales.
The Duke of York's Royal Military School have no record of him,
but suggested he may have gone to RHMS.
Leanne, The children admitted to the Royal Hibernian Military
School, Dublin after 1901 were in the age ragnge 10-13, in exceptional
circumstances some were admitted at a younger age. If you
let me know the age he was at the time of the 1901 census, I will
be able to home in to the correct year.
30 January 2006
I came upon your Hibernian Military web pages and read them with interest.
I am working
officially for the Office of Public Works, Dublin, in researching and
writing the history of British, Commonwealth and International War
Graves in the Irish Free State and Republic, 1914-present. I was greatly
taken by a number of the photographs on your website. In particular
I found "Last
muster parade of the Royal Hibernians before leaving Phoenix Park" and
the "Etching of the Royal Hibernian main building as it appeared
in the late 18th century" to be of great interest. Would you be
free to indicate the original sources/locations for these as I would
like to get permission for their possible use as illustrations for
the projected publication. I would also appreciate learning the provenance
of the other photos on the site, notably the 1969 old boys gathering
at the Phoenix Park bicentenary reunion of great interest. The site
itself is impressive!
Fergus D'Arcy (professor emeritus, UCD, Dublin)
30 January 2006
Dr. D'Arcy, In response to your inquiry, I offer these comments:
You are free to make use of anything you see on the Royal Hibernian
section of our website with the usual attribution. We jointly own copyright
of everything posted. Some data and copy have been published in such
publications as The Irish Sword, the Journal of The Society
of Army Historical Research and ny the Genealogical Soc. of
Irelandl. The "Etching of the Royal Hibernian main building
as it appeared in the late 18th century" is in the public domain.
I believe that it originally appeared in The Irish Times in
the early 19th Century. I regret that I cannot handily pinpoint the
issue in which it appeared. The image of the "Last muster parade
of the Royal Hibernians before leaving Phoenix Park" first appeared
in a copy of The Hibernian, the quarterly journal of the RHMS
(c 1924). Copies of The Hibernian are in the Irish National
Archives, Dublin. This image, too, would be in the public domain. The
Duke of York's school, Dover, inherited the last two volumes of The
Hibernian journal when the RHMS amalgamated with the Duke of
York's school in 1924. Copyright ownership of all other images that appear
on the site are vested in ourselves as its owners and operators unless
otherwise stated in response to inquiries. For example, the 1969 gathering
of old boys at the "bicentenary reunion at Phoenix Park" was
provided by Mrs. Sheelagh Gray, daughter of the late Captain Harry
Bloomer who organised the reunion.
I am certain that Mrs. Gray would not object to your making use of this
photograph provided it carried a credit to her. I will, as a matter of
courtesy, advise Mrs. Gray of your interest; also Lt. Col. Roger Say,
Bursar of the Duke of York's Royal Military School. He, too, I am sure,
would wish to know of your project.
20 January 2006
Mr. Cockerill, I'm co-writing an article dealing with the links between
British and colonial police forces in the mid twentieth century. One
of the references is to your book on Sillitoe. It is for a journal
whose house style requires the inclusion of first names of authors. Try
as I might on the internet, I can't find yours anywhere so I'm writing
to ask you what it is. In return, I'd be happy to send you a copy of
the finished article. By the way, are you aware that a pamphlet on Sillitoe's
history as Chief Constable of Chesterfield by David Beeston was recently
published? It is entitled 'Back from the brink: Captain Percy Sillitoe,
Chief Constable of Chesterfield, 1923-25', published by Birchwood
History Department, Open University, UK.
20 January 2006
Chris, The internet is a convenient medium for tracing people. I only
used my initials for by-lines. I'm known to my friends and colleagues
as Art. The second name is William. I hope your article has a good reception.
Regarding the Beeston article, no, I was not aware of it. Would it by
chance be available on the internet or only from Birchwood Publications?
Thanks for telling me.
25 January 2006
Art, Thanks very much. The bibliography is now nearly complete - all
I need is a copy of the Army List from the 1970s to find the forename
of the Commandant of the Royal College of Defence Studies, who thoughtlessly
retired at a rank just below that which would have got him into Who's
Who by default. If you are ever in the UK, feel free to visit our archive
in Milton Keynes. We have the personal papers of Eric St. Johnston, the
archive of the Association of Chief Police Officers, and much other material
dealing with UK policing in the twentieth century.
25 January 2006
Chris, re. your lament about the first name of the Cmdt. of the RCDS,
it shouldn't be difficult to find it provided you have his name and initials.
Most city libraries carry the annual Army Lists; so they're as plentiful
as cherries on the bough. A visit to Milton Keynes might be of interest,
but a meeting would be preferable. What's your particular area of history?
Social, economic, educational, penal or what?
Thomas Bidgood connections
27 January 2006
Peter, This information is quite interesting as BIDGOOD was living
not far from the address given on Alan BERNARD/BUTLER’s birth cert.
I still can’t find Alan/Anthony in the 1891 or 1901 census, but
I think I’ve found his father in the 1901 living with a different
woman(!) so this may account for various anomalies. My grandmother always
said he was illegitimate so it’s possible that the putative, recorded
father (Alfred BUTLER) was not so. The Butlers were a family of Lightermen
going back to the 1700s. I’ve traced them in the records at Guildhall,
but have further work to do there. Do you know if there are any living
relatives of the BIDGOODS as they may have some relevant family history
or papers? Or have his papers been lodged with a manuscript archive?
Thanks for your help.
27 January 2006
Kit, The only suggestion left is to go to the newspaper archives and
search the Entertainment papers, perhaps in the Bands-Musicians
section followed by a trek through the advertisements etc. There is also
'The Hiss & Boo Company', an eclectic collection of Music hall
singers etc. There could be a connection and he is most helpful. He
has a web site, so should prove easy to contact. There is also Cockerill's
site at URL http://www.achart.ca/york/bidgood.html.
There are a couple of references that may prove useful. The only other
authority I know of is a Dutchman, Van Dinteren, who did correspond
with relatives in New Zealand, but I was not privy to that conversation.
His research was published in Holland, and as my Dutch vocabulary is
limited to Amsterdam ... I don't think that I am able to help
you any more,