Boy soldiers
Canadian boy service during WWII
Relief of Lucknow
Royal Hibernian Military School
Royal Hospital School
Royal Military Asylum

Art, Thanks for your help. I'm writing the paper now and hope you can help me with one more question! My professor wonders if Boy Soldiers (I'm targeting WWII) actually referred to themselves as this or if it was a term applied later. I know you made a quote in your book about one person who was offended by the term boy soldier but, for example, if an 'illegitimate' underage soldier made it through, did he refer to himself as a boy soldier? I'm leaning towards the "yes". They would have used this term at this time but was just wondering if you could verify this. (Of course, assuming some would regard the term as derogatory!) Thanks again.

Angela

6 March 2006

Angela, I apologize for not properly reading and answering question last night. The hour was late. A soldier who lied about his age and saw active service would not, I believe, later  refer to himself as having been a 'boy soldier'. He'd say that he enlisted under age. My earlier response about 'junior soldiers' etc. referred only to those who enlisted as boy soldiers or apprentices. Sorry about that.

Art

6 March 2006

I interviewed a guy about 10 years ago as part of my journalism program.... he was underage. (Lied. the recruiter turned a blind eye and let him go through, though he knew he was underage because of his size.) Not 100% sure what he referred to himself as and he has since died. The man at the legion who set up the interview told me he was a boy soldier, so I guess it's one of those tomato/tomato, potato/potato things. Though, with what you said, referring to having 'served underage' rather than be called a boy soldier, I would almost think that perhaps one would 'during' the war refer to himself as 'underage' and then later a 'boy soldier' when it was safe to reveal their true age without reprecussions. I come to this conclusion through reading newspaper articles where it seems many of the boy soldiers LIKE having the fact they can classify themselves as part of this group, as part of a comraderie thing. Your email last night helped answer another question I had though so it was definitely not in vain! Thanks so much,

Angela

21 March 2006

Mr. Cockerill, I wonder if you might help me. I have copies of my Great Grandfather's Military History, which record that he was at the Royal Hibernian Military School and also at the Duke of York's Royal Military School. I have searched the internet to find out more about these places and I discovered your site. This man, James Edward Culeen, was born in 1879 and in 1900 he joined the Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry and served in South Africa. I am very confused as to how he came to be in Dublin at the Hibernian Military School. James is in England at the age of 11 in the 1891 census and then I don't know where he was until he joined the Yeomanry in 1900 at the age of 20. I am having trouble finding out any real information about his father, Thomas McEwen or McKeon  who was born in 1844 apparently in Manchester, England, (Culeen was a stage name adopted by the family as they had a circus). I believe that Thomas' father was born in Ireland. I am hoping that I might be able to find out some more information on the family via this Hibernian link.
Am I right in assuming that for James to have been at the Hibernian Military School, his father must have been a soldier from Ireland?

Mereli Birch

21 March 2006

Mereli, Thank you for the contact. Could you be more specific about you grandfather's military records? It is unlikely that he attended both the Royal Hibernian School and the Duke of York's School; one or the other, but unlikely both. Attestation papers in the 20th Century had a block in which the names of both the military institutions appear and a TICK BOX in which the applicant could indicate whether he attended one or other of the schools. Many correspondents to our site are misled into assuming that their forebear attended one of the schools because they see these institutions named. If the historical record shows a tick in against the Royal Hibs or Duke of York's please let us know. A photocopy of the sheet where this information appears would be helpful. I look forward to hearing from you. Also, those admitted to one of these schools had to be the son of a rank and file soldier of the British Army with a minimum of four years service.

Art Cockerill

21 March 2006

Mereli, Art and I are colleagues. I have checked the ledger for the period stated and the named  MCEWAN and McKEON not forgetting CULLEEN. None of these names appear in the time frame. Born 1879. Therefore he should have been at the RHMS/RMA from 1889 to 1883-4 (age ten years to his 14th birthday). As he enlisted in 1900, at 19/20. then the Educated at etc. column would have been unfilled (see attachment).This was used only for Boys that enlisted at aged 14+ The 1891 census for Dublin is not available; it was destroyed. The 1891 census for the RMA is available at www.rma-searcher.co.uk and is on the 'Statistics pages'. I have checked and none of the names appear. If you have a 1991 census location for this boy, then aged 12/13, he must have been living at that address and not at either of the schools you quoted.

Peter Goble

I am an author and staff writer at The Providence Journal in Rhode Island and I am writing a biography of a man who served in the Canadian Army late in WW II. He enlisted when he was about 151/2 -- lying, he said, about his age. Do you know what was the youngest age that a man or boy could "legally'' enlist? And did they check birth certificates? Thanks so much. Any help will be greatly appreciated!

G. Wayne Miller

27 February 2006

Wayne, During WWII, the youngest age a boy could enlist in the Canadian Army was 14½,  as a trade apprentice. Up to the outbreak of war, the youngest age a boy could, and did, enlist was ten years of age. (See URL www.achart.ca/publications/cdn_boy_soldiers.htm for confirmation of this by the Canadian Minister of Defence Paul Hellyer in 1965 in which he names the soldiers.) There is a sharp distinction between those who 'lied' to get in and those who enlisted as boy soldiers. Hundreds lied to see active service. Thousands served trade apprenticeships. I've had correspondence with many who served overseas underage. Donald Fowler of Belleville enlisted in the Stormont Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders at age 14 and served in Italy and Northwest Europe. My main interest is in boy soldiers in the British Army although I have researched, written and spoken publicly on the Canadian experience. To answer your second question, yes, the authorities did check an applicant's date of birth through his birth certificate.

Art

2 March 2006

Art, I have one more question: Could young men enlist as civilian workers for the Army? The man I am writing about was a driver, but apparently had civilian status. 

Wayne

2 March 2006

Wayne, Give me his name, origin, period, military connection as you have it (unit, place, camp, for e.g.) and I'll do some digging. To answer your question, no, not to my knowledge. It is possible that a particular depot (an ordnance depot for example) would employ drivers for local runs, but unlikely as enlisted men were readily available to unit commanders. I'll contact some military correspondents for a more definite answer. My candid and immediate answer is that anyone who worked in a civilian capacity for the Canada Army would do so only in a domestic (in Canada) command. The army never employed civilians overseas unless they were locals and even then, very unlikely.  

Art

Art, [re. earlier corres.] Sorry to butt in but why did Lucknow need relieving in 1857? Just curious.

Jennifer

3 March 2006

Jennifer, In 1857, the 7th Oudh Infantry regt. refused to 'bite their bullets', mutinied and shot their officers. They believed their bullets were greased with pig and cow fat, a contention some historians dispute. So began the Sepoy Mutiny in the state of Oudh. Sepoy was the name by which Indian soldiers of Imperial India were known. Well trained and well led, the mutineers took over Delhi. They besieged the garrison of Cawnpore, agreed to give safe passage to the garrison and slaughtered men, women and children getting into boats to travel to safety down river. The mutineers surrounded and besieged Lucknow. Having news of the mutiny gave the resident commissioner, Sir Henry Lawrence, time to prepare a defence with British and loyal Sepoy (Sikh) regts. The first relief column of 2,000 under General Havelock broke through the enemy lines and became part of the besieged garrison. A second relief column under Colin Campbell defeated the besiegers and relieved Lucknow.
The siege was no small affair. The besiegers were 60,000 strong. Campbell's relieving force 4,500. The mutineers were well equipped to shell, undermine the residency, and assault with infantry. The mutiny became know as the 'Great Indian Mutiny', which it was not, though much has been made of it by both Indian historians and defenders of British Imperialism. The mutiny followed sharp on the heels of the Crimean War. I might be wrong about Campbell's connection with the RMA. I'll check and let you know.

Art

Searching for my Grandad Arthur Briggs who was enlisted as a boy soldier in the RHMS - he was born in 1879 so I presume joined between 1889 and 1897. (Unable to open the appropriate list of names index "B".) He went on to serve in the Green Howards (was a  pte/cpl, I believe). He was born in Richmond, Yorkshire, and served for a time in Edinburgh where he met my Grandmother. I have been to Kew and recorded Batch M112011 1855-75 source 6035516 register/film (I think I got these from Medal Register). I don't believe he served in any campaigns but he did serve in Malta at some stage of service). He died in 1927 in Aldershot, Hants, where he was serving with the RASC as a Staff Sgt Major in the Pay Office. I have a picture of him as a boy soldier. Any info you can supply will be much appreciated.

Frances Porter  

4 March 2006

Frances, Thanks for the contact. There is an Arthur BRIGGS, who nearly fits. The age is not quite right. Can you confirm that the details attached are correct? If not, I'll check the follow-on ledger. The Royal Hibernian Military School was not a military unit, but a school for the sons of soldiers. This Arthur was admitted at age 7 and was an orphan. He enlisted to the 2nd Yorkshire Regiment in 1889.

Peter

5 March 2006

Peter, Thank you your reply. I do not believe that your find is the right Arthur Briggs! I feel sure my mum would have known if her dad had been an orphan although I gather he was a very quiet man (grandmother made up for that - she bore him at least 10 children) I'm fairly fixed on his age b. 1879 (date unknown) died 25 January 1927 at age 48 according to the headstone in the Military cemetery here in Aldershot. On the picture of him as a boy soldier, the cap badge (as far as I can see) closely resembles the shape of the RHMS badge shown on the web page. If you can check the follow-on ledger I will be grateful.

Frances Porter   

5 March 2006

Frances, The entry sent, re Arthur BRIGGS, was from WO143/79 boys index 1877 to 1907. The ledger is in alphabetic order and relatively easy to find. No other BRIGGS are noted for that period. I also checked the RMA ledgers from 1888 to 1900. No Arthur BRIGGS is noted. Are you sure he was admitted to the RHMS? On his attestation papers there is a line "Educated at the DYRMS or RHMS" If the word YES or a tick is written in ink, then this indicates that he was educated one school or the other. Can you forward an image of the boy in uniform complete with cap badge. I may be able to point you in the right direction.

Peter

6 March 2006

Mr Cockerill, Can you tell me if Ms Maria Kilduff's uncle Michael, 'The last of the Hibernians' is still living, or, how could I contact Ms Kilduff?

Fergus D'Arcy

6 March 2006

Fergus, (contact information supplied) Ms. Kilduff's Uncle is, to my knowledge, still alive, and living in a nursing home. Interesting, however, you should repeat the 'last of the Hibernians' phrase because we have just come across another still living Hibernian by the name of Frederick Tadman who was among those who left Dublin in 1922 to join with with the Duke of York's school in 1924. (Contact information supplied). Thank you for your reply and for the fascinating information about Frederick Tadman.

Peter

12 March 2006

Art, I hope what you read (in mailed package) is what you're looking for. A note about g-g-g-granddad John Browne (of the 'Light Brigade') who married a Barrett from Dublin. They named their son John Barrett Browne. JBB 1st is my g-g-gdd, JBB 2nd my g-gdd, JBB 3rd my dad, I'm JBB 4th, JBB 5th my son, and JBB 6th my grandson, so we've kept the name going.

John

17 March 2006

John, Your package arrived today. The material is of great interest and will be a good addition to the RHMS Hibs section of the site. Most interesting is the memoir 'Confessions of a boy soldier'. It needs editing and a re-write, which we will do. A couple of images to illustrate the piece make an interesting article. The image at the bottom LH side of the memoir Browne alias James O'Leary, I take it, is the author. My colleague, Peter Goble of Knaresborough, Yorks, would transmit an electronic copy of any photographs should you be reluctant to send the originals out of the country. I'll see what can be done with it after a slew of other work in the pipeline. The report of John Browne of the 'Light Brigade is equally interesting. Thanks for sharing this with us.

Art

17 March 2006

John, Please answer a couple of questions? John Barrett Brown3 (born 23 February 1875 – died when?) He records that his father, grandfather and g-grandfather were soldiers. Do you know anything about his g-grandfather's service? Years of his birth and death? What unit of Light Dragoons? Did he serve in the French Wars (1793-1815) and was he in Wellington's Peninsular Campaign? John Barrett Browne (1875-?) was your grandfather. Is this correct? If so, Trooper Browne of the Light Dragoons was your g-g-g-grandfather? According to the Hibernian records, a WILLIAM A. BROWN was admitted June 10, 1885, but no JOHN BARRETT BROWNE is on the register. Would you accept that Wm. A. Brown is your grandfather? See the entry attached. His Date of Birth matches – 23 Feb. 1875

Art

20 March 2006

I have been trying check the list of pupils at the Royal Hibernian Military School but have been unable to open the Acrobat Reader file. I am looking for is my husband's grandfather, John Leslie, born 1874. Can you help? I would be very grateful for any information.

Jane Leslie

20 March 2006

Jane, I have some images of the WO143/79 ledger, but the L page is difficult to read. I can't make out a John Leslie. Are you certain he joined the RHMS? Do you know his father's Regiment? I may be able to establish the name from the second page.

Peter Goble

22 March 2006

I just wanted to say that your website is excellent. Five of my Great Uncles the Carney family from Dublin were educated at the Royal Hibernian Military school. Their father Henry Carney had been in the 15th regiment of foot, all five sons joined the East Yorkshire Regiment. The story of their subsequent service and gallantry awards during the Boer & Great War are on my page. The 5 brothers between them had 26 medals: 1 MC, 3 DCMs, and 22 other medals: http://www.old-liverpool.co.uk/Carney.html This must have been an excellent school! I'm still reading through all of the articles on your site

Caryl Williams

22 March 2006

Caryl, Thanks for the contact. A copy of this response is going to my colleague with whom I work in reconstructing the history of the Hibernian School. This is to keep a promise to an ex-Hib who provided information on the school. We have set out to discover and publish all we could on the school, its records having been mostly destroyed during the London blitz. I've visited your web site and like what I've read. I'd be happy to make a link. Now you might help us. We're interested in any information on Hibernians. Your having a good slug of Carneys at the school, you might like to write a piece on them. If you could provide a sequential run-down of them and supply illustrations we'd be deeply grateful.

Art

26 March 2006

Peter/Art, Thanks. I found the Frederick Carney 'expelled' on your web pages but not the one 'Withdrawn-Mad'. I wonder if they are two different people since our Frederick went on to join the East Yorkshire Regt. Would they have allowed anyone with a mental problem to join up. I have a photo on my page of Frederick as a very young boy in a drum band. Also have this "The fifth son Frederick Carney 6971( F Company 2nd East Yorkshire Regiment Kamptee, India. Snapper Oct 1914) Enlisted in 1902 and was discharged to pension in 1924. During the Great War he served with the 2nd, 6th and 10th Battalions."

I'm puzzled about the 'Michael' Carney in the records. It may be his second name, and if so is one of my great uncle's - this one "The second son William Michael Carney enlisted in 1894, and was discharged to pension in 1920". When the 2nd Battalion mobilised for the Boer War he joined the 5th Mounted Infantry at Aldershot. For his services in that campaign he received the Queen's Medal with 4 clasps and the King's Medal with 2 clasps. During the Great War he was with the 3rd Battalion East Yorkshire Regt." I had no idea he was ever in a Liverpool Regiment. If it was him he must have transferred to the East Yorks the same year, which I know wasn't uncommon. I don't know anything about the boys time at the Royal Hibernian unfortunately. My family lost touch with the uncles and I have no personal anecdotes, or documents. Everything I've found on them has been obtained from other sources. They were just photos in an album at one time. 

Caryl

Art, You may remember that you and I corresponded some time ago now about DYRMS and the Royal Hospital School. I am now the RHS Association archivist, and have recently come across some information suggesting that there was(/is?) a Gardyne Trophy that was competed for on an annual basis between the two schools from 1933 when RHS moved to Holbrook) until at least the outbreak of WW2. Have you come across this? Any ideas or suggestions on sources of further information most welcome.

Bernard de Neumann

2 March 2006

Bernard, Yes, of course, I remember our corresondence well. Congratulations on taking on the job of RHSA archivist. I can understand the importance of this to the history of your institution and you can be confident of our doing anything we can to help. [Contact information supplied.] Who or what is the significance of Gardyne?

2 March 2006

Art, Captain Bruce Gardyne, RN, was the Captain-Superintendent at Holbrook from 1933, when the school moved there from Greenwich, until 1939 and the outbreak of WW2. I imagine that he presented the trophy to (re)kindle competition amongst the pupils of both schools, which in there own ways were unique, but similar. From other records I see that Queen Victoria had a strong attachment to both schools, and was “amused by their Birthday wishes “broadcast” jointly from a theatre in London. Both schools also played prominent roles in the funeral of Prince Albert, and I’ve been uncovering recently the story of Greenwich Royal Hospital School’s miniature frigate that was launched onto the Serpentine, Hyde Park, and used to fire a 20 gun salute to proclaim the Great Exhibition of 1851 open to the world. I suspect that the Dukies would have played a role somewhere in the Great Exhibition too given QV’s interest. Do the Dukies know anything of a presence at the opening?

Bernard

Mr. Cockerill, I discovered your name through the DYRMS Historial site. I have been
searching my family history and found out that some of my relatives attended the Royal Military Asylum in the 1860's. I found this through a census. Looking through the lists of children admitted to the school, I was able to find the names of three children who had been orphaned. I gather that their father must have been in the army. They were born in York. The list gave dates, ages and the names of both parents. I am now trying to establish the death of their father and what happened to their mother. I was wondering if there were any further records? Would you be able to help me please? I shall give you the details.

Parents - William and Charlotte RIGG; Sons Henry Rigg born about 1851, entered 6.5.1860 Regt. Light Dragoons 13th, Discharge 5.4.1865; Frank RIGG entered age 7 1862 discharged 2.3.1869; William Edward entered age 7 Born Loftus on Cleveland York Discharged 1867

Henry Rigg was born at Fulford, Yorkshire, where there was a military establishment. I hope that you will be able to put some light on the subject or perhaps let me know where to continue my research.

Mrs. Beverley Holloway

16 March 2006

Mrs. Holloway, Thank you for your inquiry. By copy of this response, I am referring this to my colleague, Peter Goble, who has been primarily responsible for collating and analysing the admission registers of the Royal Military Asylum. While I have access to Peter's records, I believe he is more qualified to answer you. I will, however, be interested in what he has to reply to you.

Art Cockerill

16 March 2006

Mrs Holloway, You seem to have all the information I have. The three boys you are researching did attend the RMA, all belonging to William & Charlotte RIGG. As none of the names appear in the 1861 census for the RMA, I would be interested to know just where they were in April 1861. Being a Tyke of the North Riding, Loftus being but a stroll from my home town of Thornaby, I like to gather details of RMA contacts from that area. [Suggestions for an additional source of information provided.]

Peter Goble

22 March 2006

Mr. Cockerill, Thank you for your quick reply.  I received an e-mail from Mr. Goble who suggested that I contact Lt. Col R. Say at the Duke of York's School in Dover.  I have written to him and am now awaiting a reply. I shall let you know of any development. Could you tell me what the original building housing the Military Asylum is now used for? Many thanks for your help.

Beverley Holloway

22 March 2006

Beverley, The property bought from the Cadogan family in 1801 and on which the RMA was built became the Duke of York's Territorial Headquarters in 1909 when the RMA (renamed the Duke of York's Royal Military School) moved to Dover. About five years ago, the MOD sold the property back to Lord Cadogan real estate. Cadogan Estates converted the property for commercial and residential use. In memory of the RMA, the Estate commissioned a sculptor to create a dual figures of children of the RMA, a boy and a girl. See URL http://www.achart.ca/york/children.html for the story.

Art

29 March 2006

I am trying to access the Name Index on your website - it doesn't appear to be working! Is this a problem at your end or mine? I am trying to track down my grandfather, Samuel Victor Molyneaux, who is on the 1901 census as being at the Asylum aged 13. My father is keen to find out how hold his father was when he went there as a schoolboy.

Julia Baynes

30 March 2006

Julia, I have checked the web site, and all is working as it should be. The data base covers the period 1803 to 1880. S. V. MOLYNEAUX does not appear. I have images of the next ledger WO143/80 Boys admissions 1880 to 1907. Several pages are missing and several pages are unreadable. Admissions at this time were from 9 to 12 years. I have checked from 1896 to April 1901 and could not see a MOLYNEAUX. I have him in the 1901 census, but not in the ledger. Correspondent advised to write to the school for further information.

Peter Goble

30 March 2066

(Continuation of correspondence first begun in January 2006 re. two boys by the name of Hanson who entered the RMA in the early 1800s. One, George Ganges Hanson was born on a raft on the River Ganges; hence the name Ganges Hanson.)

Hillary, I have checked the Regiment Finder, "In search of the Forlorn Hope" by Kitzmillar. There is no mention of the 11th Dragoons in India at all. This is not unusual, as they may be included with the Bombay Dragoons. It does show that the 11th Hussars were in Belgium in 1793-94, on Flanders in 1793-1795 and at Tournai in 1794. Regarding the father of the boys, logic dictates he was with that Regiment; the mother is classed as a Camp Follower, no disrespect being attached to that name. I have checked the National Archives in which muster rolls for 11th Dragoons are held. They appear in WO12/975. The dates cover 1778 to 1797, which includes each entry's year of birth. Follow the search parameter WO12/978 in increments of 1, and you will be able to check the rolls to the years of birth of Ganges and his brother. To employ a researcher is expensive. If you visit National Archives with a digital Camera, you can photograph each roll to inspect at your leisure. Considering the writer's education, he was in at the start of  Regimental education and could well have been taught within the Regiment. Types of employment within the Regiment are sometimes included in the Muster Rolls. You should look for Regimental Schoolmaster or a Schoolmistress.

Peter