Duke of York's School
Girls at the RMA
Royal Engineers
Royal Hibernian Military School
Royal Military Asylum
RMA bronze statues
SS Pemberton
Surgeon Thomas G. Balfour

Dear Col Say, Firstly, many thanks for your most prompt response to my request for details of the above. [Ed note: Following a request to the Bursar for information on a forebear,  a former student.] It will take time to get through the 11 pages, but even at a cursory glance I noticed his father had the LS &GC medal. George's Conduct Sheet had a marked similarity to those I have read in the 1950's.

When I was a boy soldier pottery mugs were the items you had to buy. First for the one you broke (it was usually someone else, banged it on parade). Then for the replacement to the stores and, then the one you needed. In George's time it appears that some smart storekeeper had cornered the Handkerchief & Badge market. I also noticed that encouragement was given by Good Conduct Badges. May the ethos and the sense of "belonging" continue for a further two hundred years.

Peter Cole.

p.s. You don't really need that logo on the bottom of your note paper "investor in people" its automatic, you have been doing it for 200 odd years

Sirs or madams, James Quigley was with the 52nd regiment of foot when he died. His son also called James was placed in the royal military asylum at Chelsea in 1815. I was searching for a sister of James Thank You. Don Patrick Quigley Winnipeg Canada

24 May 2006

Don, Thanks for the contact, unfortunately, James's sister was not admitted to the RMA. A Patrick Quigly in 1805 another James in 1824 and finally a William Francis in 1898. This will prove to be a difficult search for you, too early for a birth certificate and no doubt married by the time of the 1851 census. There may be some information re James in the muster Rolls of the 66th Regt of Foot, these can be seen at the National Archives, Kew. Shedding light on his Parish of birth.

Peter

Art, Here is what I know about Joseph Frederick Richards, hope it is of use. Born 1st. March 1868 at Chatham, Kent (probably at the Royal Engineers Depot) son of No. 2596 Serjeant Joseph Richards, Royal Engineers and Mary Ann Richards, nee Anderson. (Sic Birth & Baptism Certificate) [Ed Note: Further details follow.]

26 May 2006

Peter, Thanks for the data on Joseph Frederick Richards; splendid. I don't know what I can do with it by way of a write-up, but I'll think about it and let you know. You don't by chance have any photographs of him, do you? Given his DOB it's quite possible an image will exist somewhere. Also, you haven't by the same 'chance' been in touch with the RE Depot at Chatham for his records, have you?

Art

Peter, I have now read the book The Charity of Mars and, together with the facts I have about James the soldier, I've formed a theory of his early life. Attached is a copy of the marriage entry of the 17th November 1794 at St Mary Major church in Exeter. As you know both he and the two witnesses signed their names, and James Doyle was also in the same regiment. James the soldier and wife Sarah, nee Cheese (a Wycombe family) had a son baptised in 1795 called James. James, the son, married Rosetta Watmore and brought up a family. After his wife died, he married again in 1859. On the marriage certificate he states that his father was a farrier. So my theory, as you may guess, is that he was born sometime between 1768 & 1772 and perhaps when 3 to 5 years old was orphaned through the death of his soldier father. He was then taken in by the Hibernian Military School, and cared for and taught to read and write. At about 14 years of age he was indentured, as many were, and apprenticed as a farrier for around 7 years. He then joined the armed forces, but whether that was straight to his cavalry regiment in Exeter, I cannot say. Being a historian, what do you think my options of further research are, bearing in mind I shall be visiting Dublin with my wife in June? Would your records give any clue as to his farrier apprenticeship?

Grantley Hoath

3 May 2006

Ian, The records of the RHMS that I have access to cover the period 1837 to 1918 and 1847 to 1907. The first set WO143/26 are minimal, just name, plea No. & father's regt. plus, possibly, the date of discharge and to which Regiment. For ease I have mangled them together which confirms detail in the earlier ledger and introduces the new data. Unfortunately, our hero's details are among the lost and or burnt records. It is possible that he was apprenticed from the RHMS, however the apprenticeships in the later ledgers are few and far between. You say that he went to a Cavalry Regt. The most likely scenario is he was trained as an army farrier, building his strength & physique from a bellows boy to fully fledged farrier. I would consider that the next step would be a search of the muster rolls for his Regiment. You have his date of enlistment at Exeter, and this will provide the commencement date too. If, on enlistment he was a fully trained farrier, then this should have been declared,  as would the name and possible location of his apprentice master.
Peter 

7 May 2006

Ian, Art Cockerill agrees that the muster rolls should be the place to start, you having the date of enlistment and the Regiment. It is possible to photograph the rolls now, so more can be copied for study at home rather that trying to read as you go. Failure here, would necessitate searching any extant apprentice ledgers in Dublin or the surrounds.

Peter

9 May 2006

Hello, I am not sure how it came up in my listings, but an enquiry as to boys serving in the army by someone in DUBLIN mentioned W. Corcoran born 1895, his father had been in the 11th hussars. Young William joined the Middlesex regt. died age 18. I am associated with the old comrades of the 11th hussars. There's a friend in Canada ex-11th hussars who was an expert on the 11th history. If it's at all possible and on the off chance you may have the enquirers email, perhaps we can offer some further help in his quest.

John Morriss, Deal, Kent

10 May 2006

The thrust of your message as to what you're expecting is not fully clear. However, Peter Goble has checked the extant records of the Royal Hibernian Military School and offers this detail. There is no similar name in the records of the Royal Military Asylum (now the Duke of York's School).

A William F CORCORAN at the RHMS born  2/12/1895 could well be the W. Corcoran in question: Admitted;           22/06/1906 aged 10y 6m; Company A Coy with number 8; Instructed in Tailoring; Education Standard 5; Good Conduct stripes 3; Volunteered Middlesex Regt. 22/12/1909; Father's Regiment   The 11th Hussars. (Data source: WO243/79 RHMS Dublin. Boys Admissions Alphabetical 1877-1918). Is this of any use?

Art C

18 May 2006

Peter, As a management consultant I'd have to put you way up there as someone "who really knows what client service is all about!" In fact, I'm amazed at how much effort you must have put into the whole RHMS history arena. I really hope my dear old Aunt may have tucked away various RHMS bits and pieces which could be of interest to us all. I'm writing to her today to say thanks to her for making our trip to see her in Bath so enjoyable, and I've decided to enquire whether there may be tucked away any of Granddad Mills RHMS photos or the like. I also know she has a bag of military buttons/badges of his. Do you know whether the RHMS boys had a special brass button on their uniforms? And if so, what should I be looking for?

Next I see Archibald Mills during his 5 years at the RHMS was awarded 5 marks of good conduct i.e. do these represent a stripe for each award year? Are they the selfsame stripes which appear on the lower left arm of boys pictured uniforms? Have you any idea of the basis for awarding good conduct stripes? I assume that good conduct marks/stripes do not infer that he could have had a NCO boys rank of some sort? Sincere thanks for sending details of the nominal role of boys in the Royal Hibernian School which included Archibald's details. Unfortunately we have yet to start to use skype yet. But in zooming in on all roll headings, there are a few I just couldn't make out i.e.

1.     Name - read OK
2.     Next column seemed to read Company ? (under which was letter C )
3.     Couldn't read this column heading under which number 26 appears
4.     Date of child's birth OK
5-6.  Assume columns represent Stone (8) & Pounds (11) ?

After the corps the father served in, I could not read next column heading which has a 6th in column underneath i.e. does this represent some form of educational attainment or position in class ? Finally, in the column headed " Trade or " what followed after the " or "?
Yes, if at all possible, I would appreciate an A4 scanned size of the first sent WO143/27 data as this specifically indicates Archibald's father was deceased at time of his entry to the school etc. Do you read his data under this document that although his father was deceased it does not infer that he was an orphan? Which means his Mother could have been alive? One of the great things about latest info you sent is it indicates his religion as C of E, which should make life easier to track down a birth certificate showing full names of parents ( hopefully ), in turn nailing down his father's background as a RE. Thanks once again for all your superb help. It will really be a delight if we can uncover something more tangible of his time at the RHMS. I will certainly pass all this info to you if it comes forth.

Anthony Dalgleish

18 May 2006

Anthony, I don't think I have exceeded your e-mail size I have attached a strip of the main ledger WO143/79 Boys index 1877 to 1918. Unfortunately the Weights & measures only extended to 1907. Yes, I good conduct stripe per year. There were many what we today would call petty rules, but necessary for the 400 or so boys. All those that managed to keep on the straight & narrow, were awarded the stripes, worn on the left sleeve. The 'C'  indicates that he was in C Company, and the 26, his Company number. This number would have been stamped onto all of his clothing and shoes. All other headings are now readable, so should cause no problems.

I am at the moment working on the DYRMS punishment ledgers. One of the penalties for transgressions was to lose 1 GC badge. As the RMA was initially based on the RHMS set up, there must have been a similar system of discipline at the RHMS The bottom strip with the number 2 following Archebald MILLS, is the pointer that means that his father was deceased at the time of his admission. ! orphan, 2, father deceased 3 Mother deceased & 4 parents alive but father on foreign service. The images could have been lighter, but the rules at the National Archives, ban the use of flash. The Standard in School, as 6th, Art & I consider that this equates to the present 6th grade. However it must be born in mind, that they did not receive full time education as we know it today, the 9 to 4 school day was interrupted by trade training and working in that trade. The boy's themselves were self supporting, producing their own uniforms & boots/shoes. I have seen a letter from the RMA at Southampton, they had received an order for 12 doz. pairs of hose, from the RHMS @ 15/- per doz. so in effect each could have produced articles of clothing for the other. I have yet to see a Hibernian button. Attached a fore & aft cap button from the DYRMS.( Kings crown so pre 1952) I should imagine that the RHMS buttons were similar, RHMS round the edge, and a harp in the centre. If you have any other problems, Art & I should be able to help, if not we know where to look

Peter

19 May 2006

Anthony, I omitted the bit re. promotion at the RHMS. In the ledger some boys are marked as L/Cpl, Cpl, Sgt & S/Sgt. This information is the rank on leaving. With his number of GCB, he must have been a model 'soldier', yet is not shown as promoted. This detail will be included in the 'Lost ledgers'. None of the boys at the ledgers are shown to be NCOs. Yet in the punishment ledger, I find that many Colour Cpls (2 stripes with crown above), Cpl's; L/Cpl's are mentioned. I have checked with the 1901 census, an Archibald G MILLS is shown to have been at Bexhill. I haven't the address, but I have a spy in Bexhill, he may have access to their census data.

Peter

10 May 2006

Sir, On research family history and obtaining my great granddad's Army papers from Kew it states that he went to Hibernian Military School. I have recently written to Mr. G. O'Reilly in Dublin who has sent me some information and suggested we contact you as he thought you may be doing further research. I enclose a copy of my letter which gives the details that I wrote to Mr. O'Reilly. Since I wrote I know that G Granddad died at Horton Hospital. I have looked at the records released to the History Society (Surrey County Archives) but I need to go back to Kew. Would you be able to contact me if you have time at the above address. I have a great interest in finding out for my mum, age 86, as she never knew her granddad. He died before she was born in 1919. He spent 26 years in the Army and had a number of children. We cannot find a birth certificate we are told before 1847. If people were poor they may not have had to register the birth in Scotland. Also we think his father may have been killed in one of the wars. His father was John Holmes, clerk, deceased, on John Godfrey's marriage certificate to Emily. I would be really grateful if you would contact me. May be you would like to see his army papers and have a photograph of him as an older gentleman. If you phone me we would be happy to phone you back.
Diane Ellis

22 May 2006

I have just found out that my Great Great grandfather was a student at your establishment from 1855 to 1862 an was wondering if there was any way of finding any more information about him whilst he was at the RMA. His details are: 12.        

Ref M18; Name Michael Hickey; Age 9 at entry; date of entry 6/3/1855; fathers regiment 69th Foot; Discharged 13/11/1862; Joined Coldstream Guards on discharge from RMA. 1861 census also has WO143-18-6099 as his relationship to head. Thanks for your assistance.

Martin Barker

22 May 2006

Martin, All the info is available in WO143/18, Boys admissions 1826-1889, is as displayed on the web. There may be some records still at the DYRMS. This cannot be guaranteed. Write to Lt Col R Say. Bursar, The Duke of Yorks School, Dover. Kent CT15 5 EQ. Include the names of your GGF, age on admission, father, mother, date of admission and, most importantly, your relationship. I am at the moment transcribing the punishment ledgers, covering the some of the time he was there so, write to me in a couple of months & I will check to see if he was entered.

Peter Goble

27 May 2006

Peter, I am back to you again about John Leslie. I have discovered that his father, Henry Leslie, was actually in the Royal Artillery, serving initially in the 8th Battalion which company became a Battery of the 9th Battalion and he was then transferred to the 14th Battalion in 1869. He transferred to the West Cork Artillery Militia in 1873 and in 1876 that became the 2nd Brigade South Irish Division Royal Artillery. He was finally discharged in 1884. I believe he had two other sons, Charles and Alfred but know very little about them. If you are looking at the ledger again some time, perhaps you would have another look if it isn't too much trouble.

Jane

27 May 2006

Jane, I must say sorry again. I have checked the pages of the follow on ledger WO143/79 Boys index 1877- 1907. It is easy to search, in Alphabetic order and almost in Chronologic order. With the birthdates shown too. I could not find either your John, born 1874 nor any other Leslie for the time frame given. I have also checked the RMA Chelsea for the same period. No success their either. May I suggest that you check the 1881 census for the UK, his Regiment may have been in England/Ireland, Wales or Scotland at the time of the Census. Check too with your Reference Library to see if there is a copy of Kitzmiller's 'In Search of the Forlorn Hope', this is a record of where each Regt was during the 19th Century I am sorry that I can't be of more help

Peter

Sir, I am doing genealogy on Henry Vokins and I found him 11 years old in the 1841 England Census Record as attending the Royal Military Asylum Chelsea. I tried to pull the records up but could not read them. I am very interested in the names of his Parents to get me back another generation and would appreciate hearing from you.

Joan Vokins

8 May 2006

Joan, Thanks for the contact. Perhaps the cause of your inability to extract the details is due to my being named as VOKING AKA VOKINS. The full details are attached as voking 2 pdf & vokins.jpeg

Peter Goble

8 May 2006

Peter, Thank you very much for helping me out! Much appreciated. I do believe you are right that the boys are brothers. I have never been able to get back further in my genealogy and possibly this information will get me somewhere. You were so special to answer my requests so quickly. Send me an e-mail if I can do something for you. I live in Arizona, USA

Joan

8 May 2006

Joan, Now that all is sorted, and we have them pegged so to speak, write to Lt Colonel R Say, Bursar, The Duke of York's School, Dover, Kent CT15 5EQ. In your own words, tell him you are researching your great-g-g-grandfather, Henry, and his brother, John VOKIN. They were admitted to the RMA, 25 October 1836 (Henry) & 24 October 1837 (John). Their father was Henry and their mother was Isabella. Henry Sen. was with the 15th Hussars. Do you have any records at the school with regard to my great-g-g-grandfather and his brother? Your help and assistance in tracing any details of my forebear  would be appreciated.

I can't guarantee that the records are still there, but I have pointed to 1868 and the researcher was delighted. My own for example, has a certificate that I (at 10 years old) did not wet the bed. Try & keep a straight face when your grandchildren find out your secrets. Unfortunately, the 1841 census only tells us that the boys were not born in London. To continue the search you will need to check the whereabouts of the 15th Hussars at the time of the birth of Henry. The best place to look is the book. In search of the Forlorn Hope by Kitzmiller, or the National Archives in London. At the NA, check the muster rolls of the 15th Hussars. This is a list of who was where with the Regiment for the year researched. Please let me know the results of your further research. I shall add your VOKINS to my watch for list.

Peter

9 May 2006

Sir, I am trying to find out more information on my great great grandfather, I have the information listed below but am unable to find out why he was in the RMA or what his fathers and mothers names were? is there any way you can help with this please.

Charles Thomas Davey; Born 1852; Place of Birth - Hong Kong; Fathers Regiment believed to be 59th Regiment of Foot.

Steve Noble

9 May 2006

Steve, Thanks for the contact. Your GGGfather was an orphan, his father and mother were both deceased at the time of his admission. It is highly probable that as an orphan, his Regiment will have organized his application for admission, failing this his grandparents or guardians. All the detail I have is attached.  
 
Write to Lt Col. R Say. Bursar, The Duke of York's School, Dover, Kent, CT15 5EQ and say you are researching your great-g-g-grandfather, Charles DAVEY, admitted to the RMA in December 1858  His father, William, & mother, Leah, were deceased. William served with the 59th Regt of Foot. Do you records with regard to my g-g-g-grandfather? Your assistance in tracing any details of my forebear would be much appreciated. I know that some of these records are archived, but not how many there are. If you are successful in your quest. Please inform me. Data WO143/18 RMA Boys admissions Chronological 1826-1880
 
Peter

10 May 2006

Peter, thank you for the information you have provided, is there any way I can trace back how or when his parents were deceased? it has always been a family "tradition" that Charles' mother was Chinese but, as he was born in Hong Kong I am struggling to find any further information. Is there a website that you are aware of that could be useful in finding out any further detail. I will write to Lt Col Say but is there any other avenue I could pursue for more info?

Steve Noble

10 May 2006

Steve, The logic approach is a visit to the National Archives at Kew. to check out the muster rolls for his father's Regiment for the year + - his birth. This lists the men who were with the Regiment for the period researched. Births within the Regiment are more often than not recorded there too. If he was a Christian CE/RC then there may have been a Register of births at the British Consuls offices in Hong Kong. A vaguely remember a list of foreign births within the St. Catherine's Births Register. As this is by year & quarter too, it may be a simple task to go to your local Reference Library or nearest Latter Day Saints Research facility and check, plus it is free There were several CE/RC churches in Hong Kong, perhaps the Registers were left when the British departed. I have checked Vol2 pp1080 (China) of Kitzmiller's 'In search of the forlorn hope'. This shows that the Regiment was there from 1855 - 1856  a little too late for the birth of Charles, unless a Company of that Regiment was on detachment at that time. This fine tuned data will be available within the muster rolls at Kew. I will be interested in your progress, and will try to keep a weather eye out for him.

Peter

14 May 2006

Art & Peter, Well well ...you will be pleased to know that someone who read your article (see Warrant Officer Alfred Fowler (1865 - 1953) on the website contacted me (via a message I left on roots web). We are second cousins ... he is the grandson of my great-uncle Edward Purchase (mum's uncle - Virtue's brother). He was the one I had not been able to trace at all - now I seem to be on a bit of a roll. Peter, the clues in the e-mail following may give you a lead on tracing him. He apparently was in Adelaide, Australia, when he enlisted in 1914 and was in the oz army in Gallipoli and France but was originally in the RAMC. He was born in 1879 in Alderney. Thank you so much for all your help.
Fiona

14 May 2006

Fiona, When I began trawling the net for details on Virtue Purchase a short while ago, I came up with information you supplied on the Duke of York's history site and WO Fowler.
It was of great interest to learn that Virtue's daughter had come to Australia, but I wasn't quite sure how to proceed until I saw your name as a contributor from Brisbane. I was in a hurry and didn't my details. I now find that on Edward's enlistment papers dated 18 Aug 1914, he gave his age at 32 years and 10 months with the birthdate of 8 Oct 1880, which doesn't quite work out. But I'm sure he must be your great uncle.

When you're the only member of your family in Australia you don't end up with much in the way of memorabilia. It was lucky that my brother-in-law found an  old tin among things my mother left behind when leaving her Twickenham home of 40 years. He gave me the tin when I visited the UK. It contained a couple of Edward's medals from WW1 along with one or two items of mine and my father's. I was intrigued to find that he had been in the AIF at Gallipoli and the trenches of the Western Front. On enquiry to the Australian Army, I was sent quite a lot of information on him: No. 129 Sergeant Edward Purchase of B Sec. 3rd Field Ambulance; Wife, Louisa Purchase of 8 St Martins Rd, Dover, crossed out and replaced by 24 St Georges Road, Fremantle, nr Southampton, Hants. I believe this was also his last address when he died in the early 1940s. Previously he had been in the British Army for 17 years, RAMC, so he must have joined at an early age. I have details of his marriage that show he married at 25 years on 28 Sept 1904 to Emma Louisa Puntis, aged 21. Father of Edward shown as Edward Purchase, Gentleman. Father of Emma Louisa, Henry Puntis , Gentleman.

I am John Purchase, aged 71, born to Edward's son, Laurence Edward, I was christened John Edward Joseph, although it was written as Edwin, I have a son Andrew Edward who lives in Brisbane and is a pastor in the Potter's House church. I also have another daughter Joanna. Another daughter Sally died in an accident in the UK in 1985, the same year her mother, Pat, died. I married Margaret a couple of years later. My father had a sister Muriel who married a Cornishman, Rex Stephens, a farmer in Lostwithiel. They had one son Robin. However, Muriel died early, just after WW2. Robin is your 2nd cousin; also, he has married twice and has two sets of children. More about them later. Enough for now. Are you still in Brisbane? Love to hear from you.

John and Margaret

16 May 2006

I have found your site by typing Royal Military Asylum Chelsea into Google (as you do when you want to find out about something!!) I wondered if you may be able to help me, or know of anyone who can? I received my Gt Gt Grandparents' marriage certificate this morning.  They were married Sept 5th 1886. Her name was Alice Bartlett, spinster aged 22.  She gave her address as Royal Military Asylum Chelsea. Her father is deceased, but his profession is recorded as stone mason. Do you know how I can find out what she was doing there? She married a William Tucker, bachelor aged 22 who was a brewer's assistant. residing in Battersea. Any information that you can give me will be very welcome.
Caroline Slark

16 May 2006

Thanks for the contact. The most likely explanation for the presence of Alice Bartlett at the Royal Military Asylum, Chelsea, in 1886 is that she was a member of the school staff in some capacity. She could have been employed in the laundry, the kitchen, hospital or as a member of the school matron's staff. A more senior position than the laundry or kitchen would seem to be the case if she was accommodated on the premises, a nurse perhaps or nursing assistant working in the school infirmary. If she had been in the institution in 1881 (a census year), we might find her reported on the census return for that year, which we do have. I am directing a copy of this response to my colleague, Peter Goble, who might have other suggestions to help identify what Alice might have been doing at the school. For my own part, I should think she was employed in some capacity if not the daughter of a male member of the school staff.

Art C

16 May 2006

Caroline, Art seems to have covered all the possibilities, with the exception of; Sewing Mistress, piano teacher or Reading Mistress. One of the ledgers covering the punishments meted out to the boys indicates that the cleaning of class rooms, dining rooms the pan wash in the kitchen( as illustrated in the Graphic magazine article),  dormitories and bathrooms was all completed by the boy's themselves. An indication of her employment may be within the 1881 census, also after her marriage in the 1891 if she continued in any professional employment such as Nurse, Schoolmistress, seamstress dressmaker etc. I have yet to discover any reference to the civilian staff at the RMA other than the census entries.

Peter G

18 May 2006

Thank you both for your emails. I have had a dig further into my Alice Bartlett's connection with the Royal Military Asylum Chelsea. She wasn't there for 1881 census and was married in 1886,  A Jane Trussler was a witness at her marriage. She was registered at the Royal Military Asylum Chelsea. in 1881 census.  Her husband was a pensioner there (sergeant) !891 census  She was still there as a widow, and worked as a needle woman. The other twist in the tail is that she came from Long Sutton in Somerset, the home of William Tucker Alice's husband.  So I assume as you suggested Alice must have worked there. Perhaps Jane Trussler introduced the young William and Alice? Who knows? Thank you again. Should you come across Alice Bartlett at all please let me know.

Caroline

18 May 2006

I am trying to trace the family of one of the boys shown on the 1891 census as having been at the RMA. His details are: Name - George Newling; Age - about 10; Born - East Indies. Unfortunately his name does not appear on the Name List in the RMA website so I have been unable to identify his father's name, regiment, marriage etc. I wonder if you are able to help? Thanks

Chris Wallis

18 May 2006

Chris, The ledgers covered on the rma-searcher site, are from 1803 to Aug 20th 1880, with the additions of the 81, 91 & 1901 census. I have yet to transcribe the next ledger WO143.80 covering 1880 -1920. I have photographed the ledger but, not being allowed to use a tripod, some of the images are a bit shaky, and need to be re done. The page you require takes the Super Wobble prize. Do not despair. He is there, entry No10053, admitted 29th August 1890 aged 10. his father was with the 7th Regiment of Foot, or The Northumberland Fusiliers. It is the R hand page that is faulted. I can't make out the parents names, and he was delivered to his parents on the 11 August 1894. Write to Lt Col R Say, Bursar, The Duke of York's School. Dover. Kent. He's very helpful. I'm sure that if the records have survived, a set will be sent to you. Should you be successful, we would be pleased to know any further details.

Peter

Dear Mr. Smith,
I was delighted to find the whereabouts of the above statues, as mentioned in your web-brochure to quote:-
Outside in the square itself, we set illuminated blocks featuring local historical images into the paving. These complement references to the square’s history around the site, which include an engraved map of the King’s road from 1720 and bronze statues of 19th Century pupils from the Royal Military Asylum.
Having seen them in the vestibule of the Duke of Yorks HQ in about 1986, I was concerned that they may have been lost in the reuse of the site. I trust that provision has been made for their future. because to quote from the attached, I would hate for them to be "Just flung in a ditch" Whilst I can appreciate, they are probably doing and admirable job at the moment- if they are displayed. Have you given thought in the long term to bequeathing them to the DYRMS at Dover or the Army Museum down the road. These  statues represent an era of care in the Army which cannot now be equalled.
Peter Cole

28 May 2006

Peter, Thanks for the contact, and the attached info. I am a little confused, Art &I researched the bronzes on display at Chelsea, and Ted Beck, a friend took photos of them, one a boy leap-frogging over a bollard, and the other a girl sat on a stone. Art's article appears on his web site under "My Children" as discussed with the artist. they were cast in 2002. I may be wrong,  and would be interested in any further detail that you can find from your source, with images for comparison. We really appreciate your contact and letting us know of your discoveries. When you reach the item on the Heyside Weavers, there are some terrific images on Art's web site and a little more enlightenment of the 1830's

Peter

Hello, You may like to have a look at my Barefoot & Pregnant? Irish famine orphans in Australia/2 vols genealogical society of victoria melbourne 1991 and 2001 or order vol 2 for your library isbn 0949672 51 3 It has information on the orphans per Pemberton to Port phillip. or have a look at www.irishfaminememorial.org

Trevor

30 May 2006

Trevor, Thanks for the contact. Our primary aim is to retrieve the history of the Phoenix Park institution (its records were lost in the London blitz). We've been helped immensely by the Genealogical Society of Ireland. In turn, we have contributed to the Soc's research (see its Genealogical Series No. 25 for the history edited by George O'Reilly). We are now preparing an article on 'sources of data' for The Irish Sword. I've been to your site at the URL reference you gave. It is well designed and attractive. I have not succeeded in finding the SS Pemberton data. If you'd care to make a cross-link to our data on the Irish orphans at URL www.achart.ca/hibernian/pemberton.html I'd be happy to co-operate and cross-reference the link. Also, feel free to use any info from the RHMS site with the usual attribution of course.

Art C

Iain Chalmers, Surgeon Thomas G. Balfour, resident surgeon at the Royal Military Asylum 1848 to 1854, later became surgeon general of the British Army. A report of Balfour's statistical clinical trial on the use of belladonna given to prevent scarlet fever is posted at URL www.jameslindlibrary.org/trial_records/19th_Century/balfour/ [Might I point out that the institution from which Balfour wrote his report is incorrectly identified as The Duke of York's Asylum. In fact this was the Royal Military Asylum (1801-1892)? The Asylum was renamed the Duke of York's Royal Military School in 1892.] With a colleague, I am researching and writing the history of the RMA/DYRMS. Analyzing the punishment registers for the period, a colleague finds that an unusual number of entries bear Balfour's name as the one reporting minor infractions of discipline that earned those charged with excessive punishments: cuts, stripes, time in the 'black hole' and extra drills. For an article on Surgeon Balfour, we should like to know more about him. Do you have biographical material on this interesting man that we might use as reference material? Thank you.

Art Cockerill

17 May 2006

Thank you for your message about Thomas Graham Balfour. Deferring to you on the matter, I’ve arranged for the Chalmers and Toth commentary on the James Lind Library to refer to ‘the Royal Military Asylum for soldiers’ orphans’ rather than ‘the Duke of York’s Asylum for Soldiers’ Orphans’. My sources for the former were: Balfour’s obituaries in the Lancet and the Edinburgh Medical Journal; Munk’s Roll, Royal College of Physicians; and the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. So I trust you are right and that all of them are wrong!

As far as biographical details about Balfour are concerned, by copy of this message, I am putting you in contact with James Wood, Balfour’s great-great-grandson, and Andy Grieve, who, like Balfour, has been a president of the Royal Statistical Society. Last summer I introduced James and Andy to each other and invited them to prepare a biographical piece about Balfour for publication on the James Lind Library. I know that they have done a fair bit of research already, but I doubt they have yet discovered Balfour’s prescription of “cuts, stripes, days and hours confinement to the 'black hole' and extra drills” for minor infractions by the orphans under his ‘care’.

Iain Chalmers         

17 May 2006

Thank you for your prompt response to my request for information. I shall write to Messrs Wood and Grieve in my continuing search for information on Surgeon Balfour. As regards the name of the institution, I wish to confirm that, yes, all your sources are wrong. We (Goble and myself) have spent the past four years researching the history of the RMA and there is no question as to its name up to 1892 when it was renamed as I earlier stated. The name change was confirmed by the present chairman of the board of commissioners, Major Gen. A. L. Meier, CB, OBE, and is covered in the first volume of the institution's history The Charity of Mars (1801-1892) pub. Black Cat Press, 2002. This volume includes material on Dr Balfour. We dispelled a number of myths regarding the RMA. For example, incorrect information on the history of army education was published in two official volumes commissioned by the Royal Army Education Corps, which I'll not develop here. I do, however, assure you that reference to the name change is to be found in the minutes of the board of commissioners of the RMA for 1892.  

Art C

17 May 2006

(To J. Wood & A. Grieve) Gentlemen, You will have received a copy of the exchange of correspondence between Iain Chalmers and myself regarding Surgeon Thomas G. Balfour, resident surgeon at the Royal Military Asylum, Chelsea, from 1848 to 1857. As stated in that same correspondence, my colleague, Peter Goble, and I are researching and writing the history of the Asylum and its successor organisation, the Duke of York's Royal Military School. References to our websites are to be found below. We intend writing an article on Dr. Balfour for posting on our website. The same material might be included in the second volume of our history of the Duke of York's School as it is known today. I am writing to ask a) if you could provide us with a bio sketch of Surgeon Balfour for use in a our article, attributed of course, and b) allow us to quote appropriately from the material on the jameslinlibrary website. From our analysis of the punishment records of the RMA, Dr Balfour was no slouch when it came to reporting the misdeeds and disciplinary infractions of boys of the Asylum. For example, of 1800 boys reported and punished over a given period, Surgeon Balfour reported 282 or about 15.5 per cent of them. This is as high a reported number as any other member of staff over the same period. In fact, one might say that, as the school doctor, he was qualified to report but one boy, for failing to attend to have a dressing changed. This leads us to wonder what sort of man was this Dr. Balfour.

Our transcription of the records also reveals an astonishing detail of medical data on boys admitted to the military schools (the Royal Hibernian Military School in particular, though we believe this holds true for the RMA too): height, weight, chest measurements etc. from which it is possible to calculate the respective body mass index (BMI) of the children; invaluable epidemiological data I should imagine for anyone studying obesity in children. This of course is a related subject. We have yet to discover if or what Dr. Balfour's involvement was in the collection of such data. I look forward to hearing from you.

Art C.