SUBJECTS

Army Education
Corps of Army Schoolmasters
Duke of York's Royal Military School
Royal Marine school for RM children
Royal Military Asylum
Royal Victoria Patriotic School
The Light Brigade

Mr. Cockerill, I received your letter and attachments dated 10 January 2006 (2007?). Your references to how well you feel you are regarded and your importance as an authority on military education, I have taken on board. Nothing you say, however, changes my initial opinion. Your correspondence did stir me to seek the views of RAEC authors who are conversant with the work of Dr Leslie Wayper and Colonel Archie White VC. All of them gave me sound advice with the response from Dr Elaine Smith, who did much of the research for "Mars and Minerva", worthy of circulation to all concerned, including yourself. I found her paper illuminating and balanced with little in it to detract from the Reverend Gleig's reputation as 'the father of military education'.

You refer to Wayper and White as "two giants of army education", a claim they would have found astonishing. If such an ascription could be made, you missed one out : the Rev Gleig, whose zeal, reforming spirit, insights, compassion and determination make him truly worthy of being regarded as a giant of army education.
If your main concern remains pursuing QAS research, Colonel Noel St John Williams tells me you will be rewarded by reading his "Tommy Atkins' Children. The Story of the Education of the Army's Children 1675 - 1970" [HMSO 1971].  

Brigadier Sherry, This will acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 2 February 2007 and the enclosed undated 3600-word paper, which is without a by-line.

Two respectful and spirited attempts to respond to the umbrage you took at my letter
dated 4 October 2006 to Col Roy Fairclough are at the limit of my patience. You have contributed nothing of substance to the Gleig argument, but have instead laced your letters with thinly veiled barbs and snide remarks about phrases I used in previous letters, "giants of army education" being the latest example. Such cutting language is unbecoming of a retired brigadier general with a career spent in army education. I am not a second lieutenant on the carpet for dropping the port bottle at a mess dinner. If you cannot be more helpful and genuine in pursuing this dispute, step aside and let me deal directly with your hired gun.

I will answer this paper all in good time. You say that it was written by Dr. Elaine Smith, but that name appears nowhere on the paper and one is left to wonder 'who me?' which appears under Item 4 b.

The paper is worth publishing, which I will do provided I have permission of the person you say wrote it - and have prepared my answer. The criticism doesn't bother me, but the discussion will interest our readers. I have for this reason enclosed a letter to Ms Elaine Smith Ph D, but I will not deal with the matter through an intermediary. Ms Smith has my e-mail address on the letterhead for reply if she is inclined to do so. That's up to her.

For your further information, I have read Tommy Atkins' Children. The information given on the QAS is paltry as compared with Miss Bottle's memoir. (See URL www.achart.ca/queens_army/index.htm if you're connected to the internet.)

A. W. Cockerill

7 February 2007

Brigadier T. C. Sherry, OBE, Chairman of Board of Trustees, RAEC Association

Sir, You have caused me considerable work in answering a trivial paper questioning an inconsequential remark I made in a letter to a retired fellow officer of yours in the RAEC. For want of satisfaction, you have written cutting letters under the guise of measured language and employed one or more others to justify your annoyance and displeasure with what I wrote. Your severe and unjustified manufacture of puerile evidence in the form of a paper, has consequences. As the paper enclosed with your letter dated 2 February 2007 is undated and carries no direct proof or indication of authorship, it is published on the www.achart.ca website without the attribution for which I asked. This action may concern you not a jot. Nevertheless, I have amply demonstrated the frailty of your argument and will not be ridiculed by you or, by proxy, your Association. For the information of members of your Board of Trustees, separate copies [have been mailed to them] are enclosed. It is my hope that should this disagreement come to the notice of those officers who were exceedingly and generously helpful to me during my research so many years ago will understand the position in which you placed me. I expect you to admit fault and provide me with a written official apology. (See http://www.achart.ca/sherry.htm)

A. W. Cockerill

Please can you give me any advice how to trace an Alan Kenneth White described on marriage certificate in 1911 as 'Army Schoolmaster', of Queen Victoria Soldiers Home, Artillery Place, Woolwich? He was my grandfather, and I know no more about him than this. I would really appreciate any advice. Thanks.

Ian White

12 February 2007

Ian, We might or might not have information on your grandfather. It's possible. We're presently working on that period of the Corps of Army Schoolmasters. Why don't you send us what more information you have: DOB, any background data at all? My colleague might be able to help, hence the cc.

12 February 2007

Art, I checked the records of Schoolmasters I have. There are several WHITES, but not an Alan Kenneth. He is also absent from the Database held by the AGCorps Museum. Not a boy or Monitor or Pupil Teacher at the RMA or RHMS for the 1891-1901 census. I have checked the WO372 medal Rolls for the 14-18 War, failed again to find him. If his Army Number appears on his marriage certificate, I may be able to isolate a possible enlistment Also, Ian needs to get a copy of his attestation papers for when he enlisted to the CAS. As he marries in 1911, a guestimate of his age will be 26. The next possible sighting will be in the 1911 census, but that is 5 years hence I even checked the names on the 1908 Aldershot assistant Schoolmaster course, not there either. We definitely need more input. Ian, are you in possession of his WW1 Medals? or any photos of him etc?

Peter

12 February 2007

Thank you so much for responding so quickly.  I'm afraid I have very little information on my grandfather Alan Kenneth White, but here is what I do have:

Date and place of birth unknown; Married 01 Jan 1911 at the Register Office, West Ham, in the counties of West Ham and Essex, aged 24 years, to Mildred Sullivan. Rank or profession is given as Army Schoolmaster, and residence at time of marriage is Queen Victoria Soldiers Home, Artillery Place, Woolwich. His father's name was William White, who is shown as deceased at that date, and whose Rank or profession is given as 'of independent means'. He also appears on my father's birth certificate on 01 Dec 1923. Occupation is shown as 'Civilian clerk Army Office, with a home address of 19, Wessex Road, Salisbury, Wiltshire. I do not know when he died, or where. Since emailing you this morning, I have found an index record for a White A K on the national archives website, with a document reference of WO 339/44633 showing service during 1914-18. I have ordered a copy of the document, but obviously cannot tell from the index entry alone whether this is he. I don't know how long the copy might take to reach me, but I'm not holding my breath. I have neither medals nor photographs, I'm afraid.  I have failed to find any record on the 1891 or 1901 census returns.  Once again, thank you for your help.  With so little to go on, I need all I can get!
By the way, Peter could you re-send your email to me when you have time to do so?  I seem to have managed to delete it while attempting to reply.

Ian White

13 February 2007

Ian, Thanks for the added detail. At 24, getting married, it is possible that he attended the DYRMS Schoolmaster courses. I have attached a photograph of the course there in 1909, making him to be 22, about right for the average age of student schoolmasters with at least 1 years study left. I can't guarantee that he is included, but ask any of your relatives if they recognise any of the students present. Save the image to your image viewing file, to view at 100%

Peter

I have just read your introduction to the Duke of York's Royal Military School, which I found very interesting. My father went to this school at the age of 11 or 12, early in the 1920's. I would dearly like to find our more information about his time there. It would complement the photographs I have of him in the school uniform. Would you be able to direct me to whom I could ask for further information. Perhaps a school register etc.

Trish Clarke

18 February 2007

Trish, Yes, I'm sure we can help. However, as I do in most cases of inquiries such as yours I'll pass you on to my colleague, Peter Goble, who does the research for our site and gives sound advice, which  should produce results: detailed information and records of your father's time at the school. While I'm on the subject, we would very much appreciate getting copies of any photographs you possess of your father's Duke of York's experience and your telling anything you're able to offer regarding his career subsequent to leaving the School. Electronic copies would be fine. With that I'll pass you over to Peter.

Art Cockerill

19 February 2007

Peter, My father's name is Geoffrey Neal DOB 22/11/1912. I will search out any photos I have got and pass them on to you. Thanks for your prompt answer

Trish Clarke

Patricia, Not a lot of information in the ledger, but he is certainly there. Your next task is to write to: Lt. Colonel R. Say, Bursar, The Duke of York's School, Dover. Kent, CT15 5EQ. Ask if he has any records of your father, Geoffrey NEAL, who was at the school from 9 Jan  1924 to 22 Dec 1927, volunteering to the South Wales Border Regt. NEAL G Born 22/11/1912:  Admit 09/01/1924: C/E: Played in the Band: His discharge date reads as 1921, but I feel that it must be 1927. I am sure that you will not be disappointed at the end result.

Peter

Art, I was recently asked if I had ever heard of a school for the children/orphans of Royal Marines, and of course, apart from (G)RHS I had not. Have you, or any other Dukies, come across such a school?  I assume that it would have been a similar type of outfit to that of our old schools in the distant past. Thanks for your help.

Bernard de Neumann
RHSA Archivist [Royal Hospital School Association]

22 February 2007

Bernard, Dartmouth's only comparable school to the three military schools (RHMS, DYRMS & QVS) and, in this regard, you're far more knowledgeable that I am. Peter might have heard of an RM institution for its children, so I've sent him a cc of this exchange. [Peter, does this ring a bell for you? Never heard of such an institution myself.] What's the URL of your site again, Bernard?

Art

Bernard, Very sorry, idiot that I am. I meant Greenwich RHS, of course, not Dartmouth. [I'm a bit discombobulated at the moment, having just had major oral surgery. Having recognized your message among the plethora or messages awaiting attention, however, I had to answer you, which I did on the fly; please excuse me.

Art

Peter, Thanks to your advice in the E-mail you sent me, I received a letter from The Duke of York's Royal Military School this morning. Also copies of original petition documents concerning my Grandfather and Great Uncle and conduct records of their stay at the school.  What a harsh life they had.  Through these documents, I've discovered that my Great Grandfather died while serving in India,. My Great Grandparents married in Middlesex so I'm not sure why the boys were born in Ireland. Perhaps she was Irish? Great Grandmother remarried and lived in Manchester so another branch of the family tree is found. Can I hope to find out about my Great Uncle's army career in the Royal Artillery if he had one? Thank you again for  all your help. I was so pleased to receive all this new information, I had to let you know
Dorothy

15 February 2007

Dorothy, Thank you for letting me know of your success, and your receiving copies of your relative's records from the Duke of York's School. Regarding researching his records in the Royal Artillery, the best place to start will be the National Archives at Kew. It is possible to view some of their archived material via the internet. Search for the "National Archives, Kew", then follow the link 'Military Research". It is a little complicated, but persevere and the results can be as enlightening as that received from the Bursar of the Duke of York's School. I would consider that the boys being born in Ireland, was due to their father being stationed there. Details of their birth may be included in the RA Muster Rolls of the year of their birth. Thank you for keeping us informed.

Hi, I wonder if you can help .I am trying to find out information about The Royal Victoria Patriotic school in Tenby during the second world war. My Aunt was there between 1942 and 1945 she has sent me a photo and some names but as yet have hit the buffers. it seems she was sent there from Dartford area because my gran was in hospital with TB and Grandad serving with the Army god knows where. Long story that is. I have tried the Wales library and Museum service and am now awaiting a reply from City of London where it closed in 1939. I tried Google and ended up on this web site. The school was either in a Major Berkleys country house or even Francis Jones's, an advisor to Churchill and head of Royal Vic pat school. I hope you can help. It would mean a lot to her as she drew a blank on schools reunited so asked me. All I know is had a lot to do with a Captain landau Us army who arranged trips and treats for the school girls and head mistresses name was a Miss Sterling. Thanks in anticipation.

Dave Thorn

8 February 2007

Dave, Sorry for this delay. The RVPF was begun in the 19th century (1857) during the Crimea War under the patronage of Prince Albert. You probably know all about this. However, the Royal Victoria Patriotic Schools were created to educate the orphaned sons and daughters of British service personnel. A number of centres were in existence by the end of the century and well into the 20th. Here's a shot of the main building at Vine Yard, London. This is important because it marks the beginning of your trail.        
          I recommend that you write to South of the Border Holdings Ltd. and ask them where their records are kept; that you're interested in those for Tenby. This might mean nothing to them and they might or night be able to help. Alternatively, you might strike it lucky.
          I suspect that the main repository for the RVPF records is the National Archives at QV, the website of which is to be found on the web. If you can arrange a visit, the people in the information area are most helpful and will head you in the right direction. I'd keep away from professional researchers if I were you. Not much here, but it's a start.

Art

Would there be any way you could put me in contact with Wendy Leahy who contacted you about the 4th Light Dragoons? I too have spent a lot of time researching a handful of men from the regt at this 1830s-40s period and would like to compare notes with her. Would this be possible? Hope you can help,
Roy (Mills), Editor, The Lives of the Light Brigade

2 February 2007

Yes, of course. By all means (e-mail address supplied) Have you checked the www.rma-searcher.co.uk site for the 4th Light Dragoons. There were probably children, boys and girls both, from the 4th Dragoons in the 1830s-40s and later. Those entries might give you a lead to their parents. If it's of any help, we could exchange links with you; there's a strong connection between the Light Brigade and the Royal Military Asylum.

Art