Army Schoolmasters
Dukie generals
Family histories
Grenadier Guards
Play Up Dukies
Royal Hibernian Military School
Royal Military Asylum
SS Pemberton
Temperance medals

Mr. Cockerill, I read your March correspondence on Army School Masters with Carol Miltenberg with immense interest. I too am researching my dad's family. My dad's great grandfather was one Alfred Millard (Army schoolmaster) who had a son Frederick Henry Millard, who's son Henry, in the 1901 census, was my grandfather and, sadly, the rest of my research on Alfred and Frederick has been identical to Carol's - complete dead ends. However to say I was amazed when I read it all was an understatement: West Norwood, Birmingham, Snatt/Snott, misspellings - you name it, I've been there! I would love to get in contact with Carol somehow - if you are able please could you pass on my email address to her.

Alison Millard

2 May 2007

Allison, I'm delighted that you found the correspondence with Carol interesting. You will note that her e-mail addy is on the cc line of this reply. I am quite sure that she'd be interested in hearing from you as much as my colleague, Peter Goble, and I are. We're presently writing a major article for the Journal of the Soc. of Army Hist. Research on Army education during the 19th Century. For this reason we're deeply interested in people such as yourself and Carol whose forebears were Army schoolmasters. Peter has a considerable amount of information, for he does the research while I merely do the writing. He might be able to provide you with more information than you have at present. In this regard, we would be most interested in any information or photographs or copies of documents you are able to supply to us. The Adjutant General's Corps of which the former Royal Army Education Corps is now a department may also be able to assist in answering your inquiries. The museum curator, Mr. Ian Bailey is exceedingly helpful and, I am sure, would be pleased to entertain any questions you might have. His e-mail address is also on the cc line of this response. If Peter has any information to offer you may expect to hear from him. Please keep me informed. Good luck in your inquiries.

Art C

3 May 2007

Art, Many thanks for your reply and the other contacts information. Apart from his name and profession I know nothing more (yet!! - ever the optimist) about Alfred the army school master so sadly have no photos or other memorabilia. Rest assured that if I do find anything I will let you both know. I think our mutual forebears of Alfred and Frederick Henry makes Carol and I second cousins (or similar) which is astonishing as I had no idea that there was another strand of the Millard family. I will contact her - very exciting. Ian Bailey has already contacted me which is fantastic - he didn't find any trace in his records but has made some further suggestions which I will follow up. Once again many thanks for your note and all the info - I hope to be in touch with some news at some stage.

Alison

4 May 2007

Art, I’ve got another army schoolmaster for you! I’d ‘lost ‘my 2 x great–Uncle Samuel George Goater b. Hounslow 1857 beyond 1871 but think that I’ve just found him in the London Gazette of April 3 1900. There it reports that ‘Army schoolmaster Samuel George Goater to be an Inspector of Army schools with the honorary rank of Lieutenant.’ He ended up with the hon. rank of Major and I believe he was in India. His Dad was the sergeant – schoolmaster in Umballa before returning to England.. Have you got any info. on my great, great Uncle Sam?

Phil

4 May 2007

Art, I think I have heard from this gentleman before, I may be wrong, but the name is familiar. There are two schools of thought to consider. Was he a fully trained schoolmaster when he enlisted to the CASM? This information should be entered on to his attestation papers. If he attended the RMA Schoolmaster courses, then to be a monitor he must have been at least 18 taking the date to 1875 as a possible starting year for the training, qualifying as a schoolmaster class 3, enlisting as an Assistant Schoolmaster in 1877 and enlisting again say in 1881 as a Schoolmaster class 4. This gives a span of 1880 to 1883 as a possible student at the RMA. This covers the 1881 census, and GOATER does not appear at the RMA for that census. The only place left, will be his attestation papers. This will show the location of the Recruiting Office, if this is shown to be the RMA, then it will indicate when he may have been trained there. There is also the WO 43 section at the National Archives, Kew, this deals with correspondence to & from the War Office, there is a section covering the RMA , regiments & schoolmasters with the Dep. Secretary of War. It will prove to be a long slow trawl, with no guarantee of success. Of the RMA records  seen, these cover to 1873. Other than that, I can only recommend that the researcher checks in with the AJ Corps Museum

Peter

4 May 2007

Phil, You will have received a copy of Peter Goble's letter, which is entirely logical to me. I'd recommend a visit to the National Archives to pursue your search. Good luck,

Art

15 May 2007

I am asking a big favour. I e mailed you previously about my ancestor Frederick Henry Millard and his father Alfred Millard who was an Army Schoolmaster. But neither you or Art have any trace of him as you said everyone leaves a footprint. Well I got an e mail the other day from someone who had contacted Art she too is looking from Alfred and she too has drawn a complete blank. This made me feel much better as either we are both going down the wrong route or there is something dodgy going on! She has mentioned that a name of Newell (Newel, Newall?) could be involved but no one knows how. Do you have anything on an Alfred Newell (or something that sounds similar) ?  I am really sorry to ask you again when you have been so kind previously.

Carol

15 May 2007

Carol, There's no need to apologize for asking for help. I have to add, that you have arrived at the correct place, I think that Art and I have managed to collect a great deal of data re the Corps of Army Schoolmasters. WO143/49  Covers the first course held at the RMA 1847-1853; it is now a fully searchable data base WO143/47  Normal School letter book October 1853 to AUG 1859, also a fully searchable data base covering the training from Monitor to Assistant Schoolmaster and Student to Schoolmaster 3. Also included in the ledger can be found the defaulters ledger, covering minor misdemeanours and the punishment awarded. Neither name makes an appearance in the two ledgers covered. There is a follow on ledger to WO143/47, a second Normal School letter book covering the years from 1859 to about 1865. I have yet to see this ledger so cannot comment on its contents. I have also collated a database covering CASM found in the Census 1860-1901 with the additional data in the medal rolls at the PRO, covering the years 1914-1922.

Not forgetting the D Base received from the Adjutant General's Corps Museum, re their collection, as this covers roughly 1890-1945, I think it may be a little too late to hold any data. It has been suggested by another CASM searcher, although Warrant Officers, they were included in the Army Lists. A bi-annual set of books that record all officers in the Army complete with their promotion dates and Regiment serving with. It is on my to do list. Until I do, I remain  little skeptical. I am stumped, with regard to directing you to the source you require. But then it is early days. Art and I are still digging and displaying our results, but there has been no response to web site re the Schoolmasters. I think I did mention WO 43 a ledger held at the PRO. Somewhere among the 1000 or so boxes coverage of the Corps of Army Schoolmasters, Have you tried the 1861-71-81 Census. This may hold a clue for you. Are you aware of any year and place that your Grandfather served. This may yield a clue to the Regiment. Kitzmiller's book. "In search of the Forlorn Hope" is a comprehensive catalogue of place complete with the Regiments that served there from the late 1790s to the 1900. An indication of which Regiment and which year to check Regimental Muster Rolls. Sorry that I can't supply the data, but please keep me informed of any success you have, it will enable Art & I to improve our knowledge

Peter

21 May 2007

Sir,  I read your website with interest. My great grandfather, John William Charles Henderson, was an army schoolmaster who died at Kirkee in India on May 26th 1877. I know he was married at Trinity Church, Upper Chelsea on May 2nd 1874, giving his address at the time as St. Mary's, Chatham. His age at death was recorded as 32, giving us a birth year of 1844/45. I have been unable to find out anything about him except the above. My family believe he came from Scotland, possibly the Inverness area but, despite searching Scottish census records for the time, I have drawn a blank. It is possible that Inverness may have been Aberdeen! I would be very interested in any information or advice you may have to help me trace this elusive man.

Christine Kirkman.

21 May 2007

Christine, Thank you for the contact. I have some detail of those that attended the Normal School of the RMA for Training as Army Schoolmasters. There  a John HENDERSON. Who qualified and enlisted to the Corps of Army Schoolmasters in 1854. The normal training programme encompassed 6 years. 2 years as a Monitor at the RMA, then 2 years training under the supervision of a Schoolmaster, then returning to the RMA for a further 2 years to qualify as a Schoolmaster. If this is your man, then he must have joined the Normal School in either 1850 or 1848 as the monitors ranged between 16 & 18, then the birth should be circa 1830-32.
 
All is not lost, for my grandfather shaved off a few years when he married at 59 (67 in reality),. A further snippet of data that is revealed in the WO143/47 Normal School ledger page 32. is that this John Henderson enlisted and was sent to the 39th Regiment of Foot on the 23rd February 1854. There is one other ledger I have yet to study, WO143/48. Normal School letter book, this covers the period 1859-1868. This ledger is at the National Archives, Kew. It is possible that he is there. A William HENDERSON appears in the Defaulters book, in 1863. All I have is the name, date and misdemeanor & the subsequent punishment.

Peter

22  May 2007

Peter, Thank you so much for your kind and prompt reply. I agree with you about our ancestors 'massaging' their ages, but 15 years is a bit steep! Funnily enough, when I was searching in the library at TNA, I found a JWC Henderson in the India Office List for 1877 (the year of his death). The name was in a list of 'gradations' and was under the heading 'Majors'. The entry read "1854 Henderson JWC M S C 9 June". When I discussed this with the librarians, they thought that the 1854 would have been the date of enlistment and the M S C stand for Madras Staff Corps. [Peter Goble: Art, does this slot in with Dr Bell and the Madras monitorial system. PG] However, I discounted this person because of the age difference and, also, at his death, he was at Kirkee which is under the Bombay jurisdiction, not Madras. Not only that, but the librarians and I agreed that it would be very unlikely for a schoolmaster to become a Major. Perhaps the death record was wrong? Maybe he was older? Henderson is such a common name, especially in Scotland and I am beginning to think I shall never discover any more about John William.

Chris

22 May 2007

Chris, I would be interested in the ref to the data re. JWC Henderson and the MDC. Can you remember where the reference could be found? The date 1852 is a crucial year in Army Education. The first training course was in 1849, with no details of the enlistment dates. Believe it or not, there is little information re. the Corps of Army Schoolmasters before 1890. Their Museum has almost nothing before that date. There is one area that may prove fruitful. His attestation papers will show where he was during his service as a school master, The Army Lists, a series of bi annual books that contain details of all officers in the British Army, containing such details as date of Commission, promotions, etc.  

Peter Goble 

25 May 2007

Peter, Sorry for the delay in answering your question about Bell's Madras monitorial system. Without doubt, I should think that in the year 1854 Bell's system would still be in full use in the Madras charity schools. As the Normal School at Chelsea didn't start graduating trained schoolmasters under Du Sautoy's and McLeod's new training programme until 1849, Bell's monitorial system would still be in 'vogue' throughout garrison, regimental and military charity schools such as those in Madras. Given the output of graduates you have listed, I believe it would have taken fifteen to twenty years for the changeover from monitorial teaching to the revised programme of trained teachers; i.e. about 1870 to 1880. Perhaps over a shorter period, but without documentary evidence it would be hard to say.

Art

Art, How many Dukies have made the rank of General? Do you know? Someone asked me the other day and I hadn't a clue.

Phil

18 May 2007

Phil, I can't answer your question with any degree of accuracy. Peter might have more precise information. Nevertheless, going by what I recall of Dukies who made it to high rank I'd put the number at about seven; i.e. brigadiers and up. Peter might correct me on this, but I seem to recall between five and seven generals. If I'm way off the beam I'm sure Peter will leap in with a more accurate count. [I didn't even make it to field rank, so I'm not of that august number. What about you?]

Art

I have just come across your site, and as I am from Western Australia have no idea how to research Army records etc nor am I familiar with terminology used - I am in no way wanting to use your site only seek direction to where, how etc I can either write or email departments that may or may not be able to help me regarding the following:

I have a marriage cert of my gg/father Charles Lister born about 1837/8 married aged 32  Gunner Royal Artillery although not clear on cert - at Artillery Barracks Woolwich Quarters Plumsted (Common) TO Sophia Truscott 36 Charles Father was called James Lister Gardener) witness David Lister  MARRIED 1870 3rd September. Then in 1872, my grandfather was born [in] District Stoke Damerel (I did not know where my g/f was born) thankfully someone kindly directed me to Stoke etc and I was able to send away for his birth cert and on the following information: Charles the Gunner - My g/father as on cert. was born 22 May 1872 New Granby Barracks and ggf was still a Gunner in the Royal Artillery - New Granby Barracks Devonport. The problem is I have no idea how to obtain information on my ggf I believe he was born in Scotland but have not been able to establish where, who is mother is thro James is his father but where did he come from and also unable to find Sophia although I have conflicting information that does not add up so that is the reason I am writing perhaps you can suggest something in order for me to write etc. My father was born in 1899 and had children very late in life unfortunately he did not leave any information for me to follow thro - my g/f came to WA approx 1906 and later in 1910 g/m and sons come here both sons died 1960 and 1974 I was too young gather information - just a kid  SO I am hoping if I can find any records pertaining to gg/f Charles Lister I may be able to find my family's history.

Emma

13 May 2007

Emma, The best place to begin researching your family history is to go to URL http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/ and follow the directions given there. This achart.ca site deals only with the sons and daughters of military personnel who attended the Royal Hibernian and Duke of York's military schools. For these former pupils we have some information including data on their parents and the units in which their fathers served. I am forwarding a copy of this response to my colleague, Peter Goble, who may have additional advice to offer; also, to one of our number, Ray Pearson, who lives in Perth, Western Australia, which may be a good distance from where you live. Nevertheless, he will be interested in your inquiry. With best wishes in your search through the National Archives,

Art C

14 May 2007

Mr. Cockerill, Thank you for your prompt reply. I will endeavour to negotiate the following sites you gave. Hopefully, I will get somewhere, although I have tried using the national archives - and am lost where to start, tried pensions etc but to no avail, so hopefully Ray Pearson will be able to guide me thro the minefield - actually I too live in Perth, WA in a suburb close to Trigg beach he will know of this beach - 
I do not know about former pupils etc. only know what is on the marriage and birth cert. anything else I know nothing maybe at one time gg/f may have served in India, but somehow my gut feeling is no - anyway I shall have a go. Once again, thanks for your advice, greatly appreciated

Emma, Aussie from downunder

I came across your website and found a note sent to you from a Sergeant Gregory Peck under the heading of Busby or bearskin dated 25 July 2005, together with a picture of Sergeant Gregory Peck with Sergeant Tom Martin of the Grenadier Guards wearing a bearskin. Sergeant Tom Martin is actually my late father-in-law and having spoken to his wife Mrs Margaret Martin she has expressed a wish to be able to get in touch with Sergeant Gregory Peck. The reason for my email is to ask if you have an email address for Sergeant Gregory Peck so my mother-in-law can get in touch with him. I appreciate you may not be able to give out his email address and therefore could I possibly trouble you to forward this email to him and if he wants he can email myself and I can put him in touch with my mother-in-law. Thanks.

Jacqui

18 May 2007

Jacqui, You're lucky! Sergeant Gregory Peck (I believe he retired a WOI, though I'm not
sure) is a regular correspondent and will, I know, be happy to hear from you, so I'm sending him a copy of this reply that he might contact you directly. He lives in Australia. Happy to be of help. Good luck.

Art C

18 May 2007

Art, my sincere thanks for putting me in touch with Gerry Peck. Gerry has emailed me. I have forwarded this to my mother-in-law and she is overwhelmed. Thank you so much for your assistance, I really wasn't sure I would get a reply so I am sincerely grateful for your prompt attention to this matter. Thanks again, from myself and Margaret Martin.

Jacqui

Hi, chaps, I'm trying to locate the music to the school song 'Play up Dukies'. I've found the lyrics to the song, no problem, but can't locate the score. Brian Marley pointed me in your direction, saying you were my best bet. Any help would be appreciated.

Ollie Craig

16 May 2007

Ollie, lucky you. We have what you're looking for; score and lyrics. See the attached,
Art

11 May 2007

Hi, I am trying to get some details on my G/Grandfather who was a pupil of the RHMS. His name was George Brunswick Rouse, he was born in Canada c 1849, his father was in the Royal Artillery, George left the school on the 25th of May 1863 and Joined the band of the 32nd Light Infantry Regt. I am trying to find the names of his Mother and Father, would these names be in any of the surviving records of the RHMS.

John Mills
Mullingar, Ireland.

10 May 2007

John, The detail from the available ledgers is as posted on the web. I am sure that you have discovered the detail already. The main set of ledgers were destroyed during the 39-45 war. Sadly, none of the parent's names are available. There are two avenues to check: 1. To be admitted to the RHMS, his father must have been a regular soldier. It is highly probable that as he was born in Canada, then his father's regiment will have been there before & after the birth year.  2. The record of your GF's  birth should appear in the RA Muster Rolls, as will his mother's name, for the years in question, but first of all, you will need to discover which Regiment/Battery were in Canada at that time. I would suggest that you join the Brit Regiments list at Yahoo. There are many people that will help you. I am sorry that I can't be of more help

Peter Goble  

Mr Cockerill, I sit here on a bright and sunny Sunday morning ‘researching’ my paternal Grandfather. I find from the 1891 census that he had a brother, THOMAS FREDERICK BERRESFORD who appears to have been in the Royal Military Academy. He is aged 11 at the time. I know that his father, Thomas Perks, alias Beresford, died in Stonehouse Workhouse, Devon in 1889. He was an army Pensioner. I have become very excited at reading that he is shown on the RMA census return. However I cannot find his name on the List of Students at all. Obviously I am anxious to find out as much about him and his father  as possible. Could you help and point me in the right direction for finding out about his admission and discharge and whether there are any records/details of his late father or mother. How would he have come to go to the Academy, living down in Devon. This has all been such a wonderful experience this morning and I look forward to hearing from you.

Carol A Dennard.

6 May 2007

Carol,

My computer has been on the Fritz for a couple of days; hence the delay in answering your query. I am passing you inquiry to my colleague, Peter Goble, who might be able to answer you quicker that I can. He has the admission registers at his finger tips and is much more familiar with them.

Art C

8 May 2007

Carol, This was an easy one. The reason he is missing from the Web Data Base, is that he arrived after 1881. I am still working on the additional data from 1880-1907, and all will be revealed when I have re set all 1100 pages of data. Attached, a copy of the detail held re TF Berresford. The reason he gained admission is that he was an orphan and the son of a Royal Artillery man, his mother must have died after his father. With regard to the distance from Chelsea to Devon. That is but a hop step & a jump, boys did arrive from India, Greece, Malta, Canada, America Jamaica and stations in between. I am sure that the information re ages, parents names and the boy being an orphan will prove useful in your search for his roots. There is one more step to take. Write to Lt Col R Say. Bursar, The Duke of York's School, Dover, Kent CT15 5EQ

In your own words, ask if there any records re your relative. State his full name, date of birth, the name of his parents, their father's Regiment, most importantly, state your relationship to the ten boy. I cannot state that there are existing records, but those that have written to the Bursar, have been really pleased with the result. ! will adjust my data base to read BERRESFORD. I had transcribed it as BERRISFORD, sorry about that. Also attached an image of the RMA circa 1904. Not a great deal of difference to the painting by Phillip Morris 'Sons of the Brave" I will appreciate confirmation of the data received, it all helps to ensure that the data held continues to be as accurate as possible.

Peter Goble

9 May 2007

Peter, Just thought I would let you know that we heard back from Lt Col Say and you were right we were not disappointed.  He was able to give us copies of my grandfathers Petition for entry in the RMA as well as his school records plus some information about my Great Grandfather and Great Grandmother.  I can not thank you enough. May I ask just one more question, would you know if there is likely to be a photo of my Grandfather at the school, or should I ask Lt Col Say.

Jackie Balchin

9 May 2007

Jackie, We're always delighted to hear a success story and of course we are pleased to have been able to help. With regard to the School photo archives. Had the entry been in the next ledger, then each boy's details included the Company he was in are included. However, it is possible, but not guaranteed, that there are some images taken at the school for the annual Grand Day Parade, now occurring in July of each year. In the school museum, there are a lot of images. These have been catalogued, sorted and are I understand, available for scrutiny. This will involve a visit with arrangements made via the Bursar  to the Curator of the museum. From those I have seen, many are not named, but the companies are, this reduces the faces to about an hundred for each year he was there. Attention should also be made to the Band and Corps of Drums, he may have been a player. If you do have any photographs of the young William, then I advise that you spend some time studying his facial characteristics prior to the visit to Dover. If you do go to Dover, it will also be a good idea to check the school magazines for the years 1888-1893. There could be an item re Sport or his prowess as a Poet or an anecdote etc. I am still interested in the outcome of your research. If any images are discovered, Art will be only too pleased to add your grandfather's details and bio to our History site

Peter

16 May 2007

My g-g-grandpa and several brothers are said to have been orphaned by their parents dying of yellow jack traveling round India, their daughter being brought up by their grandparents but the boys being sent to "the duke of Yorks home for young gentlemen" is there such a place? or have we been told a family myth, it would be so good if you were able to help with some advice. thanking you very much for your time.

Dougie Moody

17 May 2007

The Royal Military Asylum, Chelsea, (1801-1892) was renamed the Duke of York's Royal Military School in 1892 and is still in existence. It would be helpful if we knew the names of the several brothers to whom you refer and had some idea of the year of you g-g-grandfather's death, his regiment and other information such as dates of birth. Please supply this information and we might be able to help.

Art C

17 May 2007

Thank you so much for your prompt reply. I really don't have much info. what I do have is so convoluted and unsubstantiated, but here goes,,,, my great grandfather John Smith was born in Hilsea or Wymering Hampshire 25 April 1839 we believe his father  also John Smith (our gt gt gpa) was in the Royal Artillery Aldershot at that time. John Smith senior is the one we are trying to trace mostly because he is said to have been born in Scotland gone to England and changed his name to Smith having joined the English army , it has been said that his real name was Murray we don't know if he joined the eng arm as Murray or Smith, we guess that the gt gt gpa was born around 1810- we have no idea how many brothers he had or there names although James could be one name, we know he married Elizabeth , and he had a son named James as well as our gt gpa. I am wondering whether there actually was an establishment called "Duke of Yorks Home for Young Gentlemen" as  my mother was most specific as to the name of the home her gt gpa was in and that name seems to predate the time when he may have been there. I cannot see that we will ever find this info and almost wonder why I'm trying (sometimes)-after there seem to be trillions of John Smiths!!

Mitzi Moody

17 May 2007

Peter, This correspondent provides only sketchy information on his forebears. His g-grandfather, John Smith. was born 25 April 1839. I see a couple of Murray's listed in the admissions register with connections to the Gunners, and lots of Smiths are registered with connections to every unit but the RA; I hardly know where to begin. Any ideas? The correspondent's refs to the 'English Army' and repeated ref to the 'Duke of Yorks home for Young Gentlemen' is a conundrum. Art

Dougie, To our knowledge there's no such place as the Duke of York's home for Young Gentlemen, but there is a school. My colleague might have something to offer. I'm afraid that searching a database of 10,000 names with the information you've supplied is a time-consuming task, so I'm sorry. I can't help further. I recommend that you go to URL http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/ and see what you can dig up yourself there.

Art

14 May 2007

I am trying to find to find some information on a relative of mine, Adam Charles Dallimore. I found him at age 12 on the 1881 census at the Royal Military Asylum in Chelsea. I was delighted to come across your site http://www.rma-searcher.co.uk/index.htm feeling sure I would find him listed there, but I could not find him at all. Are you able to tell me if there is any record of Adam Charles Dallimore being at the Royal Military Asylum? Thank you for any assistance you may be able to give me.

Beryl Wills

14 May 2007

Beryl, Thanks for the contact. The reason is missing is that the ledgers on the web cover the period 1803-Aug 1880. The next ledger WO143/80 is still being transcribed. I am sure the information attached will enable you to take another step forward.

Peter Goble

19 May 2007

Art, You may be able to put me on the right road. After 21 years trying I finally have my great-grandfather Sydney Sheridan's (born 1890 Dublin) WW1 papers. He states he was 5 years in the DYRMS and 5 years in the Hampshire regiment. He arrived in Australia circa 1911. I have been to Kew and recorded all Sheridans that might fit I know but nothing has added up.

Regards Debbie Rainbow Tasmania Australia.

19 May 2007

Debbie, I sending a copy of this response to my colleague, Peter Goble, on the off-chance he can find a record of your g-grndd in the admission register of the DYRMS. If he was in the Hampshire Regt. there's no doubt that he'll be on the muster rolls somewhere. If you've been to Kew I'm surprised that the people there, who are really helpful, didn't put you on to the regt's muster rolls. Anyway, let's see if Peter can come up with anything. If he was a Dukie chances are that he enlisted as a boy soldier, but in that case he would have signed up to serve seven years with the colours and five with the reserve, so how come he only served five years with the Hampshire Regt.? [Just observations and questions that occur to me. Peter will put me straight.]

Art

19 May 2007

Debbie, There is no trace of a Sydney SHERIDAN within the records held. A search by birth year-name-& Hampshire Regiment was a complete blank, as was by birthdays between 1880 & 1905. There is an entry for a Sydney Alfred SHERRIFF, I firstly thought that this was an error on my part, but it is the correct transcription Sydney Alfred SHERRIFF. b 13/07/1895, admit 14/02/1905 parents Charles & Ellen, 1909 Volunteered to the 21st Lancers. I have also carried out a similar search of the Royal Hibernian Military School. None fit the parameters. I think that your source of the information will be his attestation papers to the Hampshire Regt. The PDF will explain. The educated at DYRMS/RMA or The Hibernian Military School, must be either ticked or have a "yes" inserted with the initials of the recruiting officer inserted. If you can provide the source of your information, it may help  me to be to reassess the problem.

Peter Goble

18 May 2007

Rosemary,
 
I've been checking the admissions register of the RMA. In your first e-mail (19 March 2007) you said that you came across four sons of John Walburn. I can only find three: Charles (age 6) entered in 1809, disposition 'retained by parents'; John (age 11 + 8 mths), entered 1817, disposition, volunteered for the army; and Samuel (age 9 y 5 m), entered 1817, disposition, apprenticed to Frederick Guyer of Clerkenwell. Does this give you more information than you had before? What about the fourth son of John Walburn? The eldest was William(?) age 13 at the time the petition for Charles was submitted, so William was excluded on account of his age. The second Caroline (?) was age 11, John, the third was age three and Samuel was age two years. James was reported as 'being in the Asylum'. If I'm correct then, we have James (I cannot find his record), Charles, John and Samuel. This note is as much for Peter as for yourself, so I ask Peter, where has James disappeared to? Have you found a record of him? Do you have a copy of these three petitions Rosemary sent to me? If not, I'll have them copied and mailed to you. Rosemary, you might let us know if you get on to another trail of these children; most interesting. It also seems to me that John Walburn was killed in action after his first son, Charles, of whom I have a record) was admitted to the RMA. Also, if this note about James is correct, then after he entered the Asylum too. That's all for now. I'm still pouring over the petitions.
 
Art

18 May 2007

Art, The first son admitted was James but I think his name was shown as WALBOURN and his is the first petition for entry. There are only 3 because the third is for the two younger boys who were admitted together. I had thought before I got the petitions that John was at home when the two older boys were discharged but perhaps this just means they were discharged to the mother. Until I received the petitions I had no knowledge of a daughter Caroline so I got so much information and as to where they lived. Peter has previously sent me the information as to where they were discharged. From looking at the records online at Kew I think that Samuel later joined the Army or Navy. I am investigating but think that the eldest son William who was not admitted to RMA became a ballet dancer/comedian !! and performed at The Adelphi Theatre  and Sadler Wells in London from about 1818 to 1830s and had a famous character he performed in those days of 'Dusty Bob' a dustman! Subsequently spent time in Marshalsea Debtors prison where Charles Dickens father and family were and written about in his books. If only he'd gone to Chelsea!! And this is the son of John that I'm descended from! I feel like a Londoner now with all these details. Also there is a John Walbourne who was transported to NSW for horse stealing around 1827 but have to follow that up as well. James turned out a sensible business man and looked after the family. Thanks again to you both. Peter, I can mail you the copies of the petitions if you would like. 

Rose

19 May 2007

Rosemary,

Thanks for straightening me out on this one. Had I read the documents properly at the outset I would have twigged. As it is, not harm done. You will agree with me that the boys had a sister Caroline who follows William in age and noted as age eleven on the petition for Charles. How interesting it would be to trace the lives of these children. Already you have dug out some interesting facts: about Sadlers Wells, the Debtors prison and transportation for horse stealing. You join Peter in having a relative transported for felony. I'll keep an eye on this file and if you've no objection I'll do a write-up of the family for the history site. After all, there are interesting observations about the children who went to the RMA, especially the two respectively 'retained by parents' and 'delivered to parents'. I'm open to correction, yet I believe Peter will agree that we've always interpreted 'retained by parents' as meaning an Asylum child 'on leave' was 'retained by parents' or 'guardians' as opposed to be 'delivered to parents (or guardians) at age 14+. I would have thought that a children 'detained by parents' boded ill for the admission to the Asylum of siblings, which does not seem to have been the case here. Actually, I believe we have another case of a brother and sister being admitted to the RMA, possibly earlier than 1808. The girl went to the cotton mills of Lancashire; her brother enlisted on boy service, came to Canada and was commissioned in the Union Army during the Civil War. All fascinating material as I'm sure you'll agree.

Art

[Continuing correspondence] Art, A man after my own heart. I confess I'm always on the side of the underdog in these stories & am horrified anew each time at some of the things which people have endured. It almost beggars belief - both in the man's inhumanity to man sense & how people kept going without being quite crippled with rage or resentment. A better man than I Gunga Din I often think! Have rec'd a copy of Kitzmiller's book to peruse, many thanks for the lead. Hopefully in time, I'll be able to find the soldier (supposedly) Goodchild connection one day. Will have a little something re the Pemberton girls to send you both, hopefully in the next week or two.

Debra (Australia)

9 May 2007

Debra, You're a splendid hunter! I'll look forward to anything you can send us on the SS Pemberton. I've sent this short reply so that Peter will know of our exchange.

Art

9 May 2007

Art, Thanks for the update. I have had a peek at my copy of Kitzmiller, and find that there are 41 pages (981-1022) of data re the Regiments that were there. One page attached as KITZ1. With the headings, no explanations are required. Oops,  the C after the Regiment name = Cavalry, F = Foot & G = Guards. As we are searching for persons aged 16-ish in 1840, then admissions will have been, if average age 7 on admission, round about 1823. All regiments that were in Ireland from & including 1823-1832 could prove to be a possible regiment of the girl's father. Greatly reducing the number of Regiments check. I am sure that there will be a copy of the book in Australia somewhere. The next exercise is to find it, and any other indications of his possible Regiment. From what we have discovered so far re the lost documents, there must be another file at the PRO that contains some inkling of the "Lets send off the last of the RHMS girls to Australia"  letters. There should be a copy in the mysterious WO(space)43   (WO 43) War office ledger. I will have to set my thinking cap to Hardy, & Pemberton the Obscure.

Peter

Hello, I do not know if you can help me with this question, but here goes. I have just found my grandfather's Temperance medal, and through this I have found your site on the net. Is it possible to locate a list of people who were awarded the medal, as I am trying to trace my grandfather's origins. (Bennett) He was born in 1888, and I see from the article that the "Royal" on the medal was not added until 1905 There is no date on the medal. Any further information would be greatly appreciated

Andrew Briars

8 May 2007

Andrew, I'm afraid that I do not know how a list of people awarded a temperance medal will help you trace your grandfather's origins. Two things strike me. First, if you want to know more about temperance medals I'd recommend that you buy a copy of  David Harris's excellent Guide to Military Temperance Medals. Secondly, we could only begin to help you if your grandfather served as a soldier. Then I'd advise you to go to the National Archives, Kew, or log on to the NA site and attempt to trace his origins through the excellent services provided. If, however, your grandfather as a boy at the Royal Military Asylum or the Royal Hibernian Military School we could perhaps help you further. Otherwise, I am sorry to say that we can be of no further help.

Art C.