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April 2008


Corporal punishment
Corps of Army Schoolmasters
Duke of York’s Royal Military School
Royal Green Jackets
Royal Hibernian Military School

corporal punishment
3 April 2008 [Editing note: extract from a longer communication]

These days, Ritson [Capt. RAEC] would have been regarded as being an unfair man, even a bully. He was generally feared by the boys of Wolseley house and he seemingly liked to dish out the cane for the slightest reasons. His canings were in fact planned sessions that took place on most evenings - Mondays to Fridays. Most boys were caned because there was something out of place or untidy around their locker or bed and noted by the housemaster during his dormitory inspections in the mornings after the boys had gone to school. i.e. I was caned because a tooth brush was out of order when laid out on my bed. Those boys who were in for it would, after supper, find their names posted on the notice board in the day-room. Boys to be caned would parade before lights out in their night dresses [that's what they were] [formerly known as nightshirts] in the day- room. When individually called, the boy would proceed to the foyer/lobby adjacent to the day-room, between the door leading to housemaster's house and the junior dormitory bathroom. Fritz would come into the foyer directly from his house. Each boy to be caned was called from the day- room with the command 'next'. In fact, the sessions were carried out in public at times. Other boys could see what was going on and of course the junior boys going to the bathroom could see. Captain Ritson's daughter Anne, sometimes had an excuse to come into the lobby to say something to her father. She admitted to some of us as we grew older that she sometimes peeked through the keyhole of the door between her house and the lobby where the caning took place to see what was going on. Ritson had a lovely-natured warm-hearted wife who we boys liked very much. She could not stand us being caned and more than once, after obviously hearing boys cry out in pain, she would come from her house into the lobby, give her husband an angry look and plead with him to tone it down. I do not know of any other housemaster at the school who dished out the cane and at the school itself, ill-discipline was referred to the RSM. During my six years at the school, I only received the cane from Captain Ritson and, on the one occasion, from RSM Jones.


3 April 2008

Frank: By way of contrast you might find it interesting to compare with my time 1963 - 1969. We still had the cane as the ultimate weapon and 'strokes' as we called them fell into two categories when I first started. First, house strokes: these were administered by the housemaster - to my knowledge all housemasters resorted to this form of punishment on occasion. It was used so infrequently by Bozz Handford the HsM of Kitchener House (one of the 4 junior houses) that it was regarded as a very serious matter when no other penalty would do. I can't immediately think of a specific example from memory, but I suppose perhaps something like gross insolence to a member of staff or to a school prefect would qualify. Untidiness or lateness or even noisiness would usually earn a 'booking'. Incidentally, three bookings in a week would result in 'fatigues' on Sunday afternoon i.e. 1 fatigue = 1 hour's work cleaning etc. Now I think of it untidiness or dirty shoes etc didn't earn a booking they actually attracted a fine of a penny for each offence from our pocket money - not good ! The only house strokes I ever had as a junior was 1 stroke from Chas Connell who I thought then (and still do) was the best master I ever had. I'd been caught talking in prep - he was the duty house tutor that night. Expecting the usual 'naughty boy ... don't do it again' routine, I suppose I wasn't sufficiently contrite and was somewhat staggered to be given a choice of punishments. It went something like this: 'Now then lad ... you can either spend the whole of Sunday afternoon doing 500 lines "I must not talk in prep especially when kind Mr Connell is on duty as it's taking advantage of his good nature". Sunday incidentally, promises to be warm and sunny; and I've heard rumours of cream cakes and pop for some junior boys at my house at half past three ... or I can cane you now and it's all over - you choose.' Not much choice there and I figure it surely couldn't hurt that much - wrong! He may not have been a harsh chap but by heaven the damned cane stung. I wore the black and blue stripe on my backside for some weeks thereafter as, I suppose some sort of 'badge of courage' - stupid boy! But the truth was I didn't care much for it at all and I vowed to myself not to get caned again.

It did happen though that after a disastrous episode of fooling around with dangerous chemicals in the lab as a 5th former I was reported to my then housemaster Jack Clark who concluded I deserved a thrashing. I was instructed to reported to the senior dorm bathroom in pyjamas at 9.00 p.m., made to bend at the waist and touch my toes and then I swear the blighter had a run up and whacked me - whilst I was catching my breath he did it again! I don't know if he was considering a third go at it but I pre-empted the exercise by standing up and whirling around. He would have had the devils own job getting me back down again I can tell you. Jack's punishment ritual concluded with the defaulter being required to shake his hand whilst looking him in the eye and saying 'Thank you Sir'. That's not easy to do. I'm reminded that Jack liked beatings in fours so that he could chant out his mantra 'Crime... Does.... Not..... Pay!'

Finally, school strokes: I never witnessed this myself but I was told that for particularly wicked behaviour which did not quite merit expulsion, boys would be sent to the Commandant for caning. I guess the point being the boy would know that next time it's the sack. Brigadier George Laing was the last Commandant and after his retirement I think school strokes died out. Our RSM, Duggie Haig didn't get involved in that side of life. Anyway his steely eyed stare and massive voice were scary enough weapons. Good bloke though. Can you remember what terrible crime you committed to warrant strokes from the RSM ?

Phil Roberts

corps of army schoolmasters
24 April 2008

My father and I have been very interested to read your web pages on the Corps of Army Schoolmasters. My great-great Grandfather was Schoolmaster Cornelius Fletcher. He was born in St Mary's Nottingham in Feb 1835 and joined the Schoolmaster Course in Aug 1855. He attested at Westminster on 2 July 1857. We know that he taught - maybe as a trainee - in Aldershot in 1857/8 and that he moved to Cannanore in India where he was with the 66th Foot, the Berkshire Regt. He married and had three children while in India (first at Cannanore and then at Bangalore) and we presume he returned to England with the Regiment. He was in Ireland in 1869 (the 66th presented him with a teapot on leaving them at this date!). In the 1871 Census he was in Woolwich and at some point he then moved to Halifax, Nova Scotia (we have family documents placing him there in 1876 and 1878). In the 1881 Census he was in Aldershot and his discharge was on 25 Sep 1888 from Aldershot (I have the Parchment papers for this). If you have any information that can flesh out this skeleton we would be most interested.

Caroline Maddison (nee Fletcher)

24 April 2008

Caroline: Thank you for your enquiry. My colleagues and I are searching everywhere for information on Army education during the 19th Century and hope to have a fresh treatise on the subject before the year is out. The website on the CAS is a shambles at the moment, but we're gradually putting it in order. I am passing your enquiry to my colleague, Peter Goble, who looks after the available registers on schoolmaster trainees at the Normal School, RMA, Chelsea. Your g-g-gf registered about the time covered by the data we have, but I'm not sure. I'll leave Peter to answer you more fully. Meanwhile, we would welcome electronic copies of anything you would care to donate to our records any documents, certificates or photographs that deal with his teacher training and teaching career. I'm leaving your message on this response for my colleague's information.

Art Cockerill

24 April 2008

Caroline: I have some data that may prove useful to you, and add bulk to the bones. Attached are the details I've extracted from the Normal School Letter Book, WO143/47, held at Kew. See attachment FLETCHER WO143-47.doc. I have converted this into a data base, and all entries, adapted to fit a form, are at attachment CASM Fletcher.pfd. Seeing it this way it all begins to make sense. Lastly, his crime sheet, really minor infringements of the strict discipline at the Normal School. The B represents Billeted up or confined to the premises for he number of days declared.

The form is easy to understand. Displaying his arrival, departures, return and eventually his enlistment as a Schoolmaster. The PG is a bond that they paid. Should they fail to complete, they forfeited the bond. If you have any suggestions as to how it can be improved or made easier to understand, just let me know, for it is all under development. He attended the Normal School as a Student, sometime in August, aged 20, According to the letter date, being admitted as a Student. The programme was 2 years as a monitor, two years as an assistant schoolmaster at a Regiment or Regimental School, then returning to the Normal School for a further two years training as a Student on completion of which he was promoted to Schoolmaster and posted to a Regiment or Garrison School etc. Study the detail attached, and then ask for any additional information to clear any misunderstandings.

We do compile biographies of Schoolmasters, and would appreciate any help you can offer, copies of documents and photos etc. Art, is the pen man, and will be only too pleased to collate all detail. We also work with the Army Education Corps Museum at Winchester, all detail eventually ends up there. They too will be delighted to find a Schoolmaster from those early days. Between us we are attempting to compile a definitive list of Schoolmasters who attending the Normal School. First there was a 28-day course. After 1849 students had what can be considered as a University Teacher Training Course, of up to six years of training in two-year segments.

Peter Goble

duKe of york's royal military school
3 April 2008

Mr Cockerill: I have just read from the Dukies old boys web site some extracts from your book. It was most interesting and I can see that you have done considerable research in its production. I was Dukie from 1945 to 1953 arriving as an 11 year old at Saunton and leaving as Chief School Prefect at 18 years old. I hope you do not mind my pointing out a few bits of your book which were not quite as I recall. These items were mainly from the 1946 RETURN TO DOVER: [Editing note: the correspondent is referring to articles on this web site, not the book, Sons of the Brave (1984) - published by Leo Cooper in association with Secker & Warburg.]

1. Roberts House was bombed in about 1940/41.
2. I was a member of Wolseley House whom had as the Housemaster firstly a CSM R Grainger DCM and then Captain Ritson RAEC. Ritson did cane boys as was the practice of all Housemasters in those days, but he never caned boys in public only in his own living quarters. He was a fastidious and good disciplinarian and a very fair man.
3. The Bandmaster BSM Singer with the assistance of CSM Fry, were responsible for the training of all the boys who were in the Band organisation. CSM Halsey assisted by CSM Lusby were responsible for the training of all the boys who were in Corps of Drums. I was Drum Major from 1947 to 1949 (this appointment made me the senior NCO in the school - I became a Prefect in 1949).
4. The school did not have a policy of employing only married staff. There were a number of single teachers both RAEC and civilian. They all lived in accommodation at the rear of the hospital block.
5. The Commandant was a full colonel - Colonel R.E. Barnwall CBE - not a LT COL although you later did give him his correct rank.
6. The uniform dress of the tunic worn with the brass buttons down the front, was worn with long woollen brown socks, not khaki.
7. We never wore mixed dress of PT shorts with uniform top if trousers needed repair because we had two uniforms so could wear are best trousers if the need arose. Usually if trousers needed a repair the House Matron would do it when you were at games - as we had afternoon games every day.
8. When we changed to battle dress the beret was navy blue not khaki.
9. No one wore his father's medals while I was at the school. We did wear our father's Regimental badge on Sunday and special parades.
10. It was about 1950/51 that boys could wear grey flannels, white shirts and navy blue blazers. We had to buy these items ourselves, which I did by paying a shilling a week from my NCO pay and pocket money (1/6d a week from my father).
11. Miss Blackman was one of 2 or more teachers of Haigh House - remember there were at least 60 boys in that House, probably more.

That's my lot which only leaves me to say that the DYRMS was a marvellous place to be. It taught manners, discipline, comradeship and teamwork which has stood all Dukies in life as responsible citizens.

Augustus (Gus) Bainger  

3 March 2008

Gus: I have now been through your commentary and offer this response. First, however, what you refer to as 'some extracts from your book' are in fact separate articles and not extracts from a published work. I have written two books that touch on the School. One is Sons of the Brave pub. 1984 by Secker & Warburg, which includes a single chapter on the school. The second is The Charity of Mars, a history of the RMA (1801-1892); pub. By Black Cat Press, written and published for the 2003 bi-Centenary of the School. (The first was well received; the second got a mixed review in the JSAHR - Jrnl of the Soc. Of Army Hist. Research, mainly for faulty syntax and sloppy proof reading.) As to your specific comments:

1. Note that this article was constructed on the reports of secondary parties; Frank Hartry states 'whether from the effects of a German shell from across the Channel or the result of a fire', he never did find out. A aerial photograph (see attached, which is high resolution and blows up well) taken immediately post-war shows the damage to Roberts House. My colleague, Peter Goble, is of the opinion this could be fire or a shell. It is unlikely to be bomb damage for a number of reasons. What is your evidence that Roberts was bombed about 1940/41?

2. I knew Dick Grainger well and, while I accept your evidence that he was replaced by Captain Ritson, who became the Wolesley Housemaster, Grainger was a company sergeant major as were CSMs Justice, Fry et al. The office of housemaster was an introduction of the changed culture of the School as discussed elsewhere in the site. As to Frank Hartry's assertion of Ritson's punishments administered 'with gay abandon' is one of perception. When using Frank's information, I had no reason to doubt its accuracy, nor do I now in the face of your contrary statement. As an editor, I'd have to reconcile two contrary statements. You state that Ritson was 'a fastidious and good disciplinarian and a very fair man', which in fact is not contrary to Hartry's statement, it simply indicates a less benign view of the man. I am willing to add a statement attributed to you that he was fastidious (which confirms Hartry's opinion) a good disciplinarian and a very fair man. I should also point out that Frank did not say Ritson was not a very fair man.

3. Your Item 3. adds to, but does not contradict what is stated about musical instruction at the school. You write of Bandmaster Singer (who probably replaced Bandmaster Clancy), of Halsey and Lusby. I mention Halsey, but not Lusby, who was until recently unknown to me. Even so, while you add information to the passage about the band and the drum corps, I don't believe you contradict anything written on this subject. If you disagree with me, please be specific. In what regard are the statements incorrect or misleading? If you can convince me in this regard I shall be happy to make changes.

4. You state that the school did not have a policy of employing only married staff, emphasizing the negativity of the statement. In fact, in discussing the subject of pedophilia, I made no statement whatsoever as to the policy of the authorities regarding the employment of married personnel. I reported what CSM Fry said, that he '…was of the opinion that the school had always employed married senior staff.' This was his opinion, not mine. However, I stand by what I wrote about 'a striking feature of school life… throughout the Institution's long history.' Peter Goble and I have the minutes of board meetings and nowhere in those minutes since 1801 is there a hint of sexual molestation. On this evidence, I believe CSM Fry had a point. Yes, I am very well aware that unmarried personnel were on staff and had been for a long time. The difference, however, between pre-1945 and post-1945 is that ex-military non-commissioned officers (mostly WOIs and IIs) managed the day-to-day lives of the children under their care until 1945. Schoolteachers, male and female, were concerned with teaching the students. After 1945, unmarried members of staff might well have been concerned with the out-of-school lives of the children. This is a statement of fact and does not imply immoral behavior on anyone's part. What then do I make of your reference to a policy of employing only married staff? I am at a loss. Please explain.

5. You credit Commandant Barnwell CBE (not Barnwall) with having the rank of Colonel. In believe you are mistaken. When Barnwell became commandant of the School he had the rank of Lt. Colonel (see George Shorter's Play Up Dukies p182 entry 21 Lt. Col. R.E. Barnwell CBE 1945-1953 Royal Warwickshire Regt.

6. Your description of brown, not khaki, woolen socks is correct, which I would characterize as sophistic. They were, I would say, of a light brown colour verging on khaki and might easily be mistaken as khaki socks by all but the most pedantic reader. The passage will remain unchanged.

7. Contrary to your opinion that blue PT shorts were never worn with khaki jackets, it is the firm opinion of Frank Hartry that this form of dress was common when the need arose for the reason he stated. His was an interesting observation that I have no reason to question, so that, too, will remain as reported.

8. You maintain that the headdress when battledress came into use was blue, not khaki. You will excuse me for correcting you on this, but the headdress was an 'end-of-the-war' pattern of khaki beret. See the article and compare the company photographs of Clive House for 1950 and 1951. The dress for 1950 is pre-war based on WWI adult military uniform with which boys wore a forage cap with red piping and two brass buttons on the front edge. In contrast, the 1951 photograph is of boys in battledress wearing a khaki beret that cannot be any stretch of imagination be taken for a blue beret. The blue beret came into use when the ceremonial uniform of blue was used.

9. Concerning the wearing of one's father's medals on the right breast and his regimental cap badge on the front of the tunic, please note that this paragraph begins 'In contrast with pre-way practice…' with which I did have personal experience. I wore my father's cap badge on my tunic front, second button down. I cannot be certain about a father's medals. I did not wear my father's. They remained in his possession.

10. As to the wearing of grey flannel trousers, blue blazers and white shirts and having to pay for these items, I accept what you say and have no reason to question it.

11. Others have written of Miss Blackman and other teachers of Haig House and the company strength of Haig. Again, this is an interesting comment which one can accept without comment.

In conclusion, thank you for your remarks. They are interesting and worth sharing with those who read this correspondence, so I will publish our two messages for readers to make up their own minds. Further, I agree with you entirely about the self-discipline and confidence taught at the School, which gave most of us a solid foundation for our adulthood.



17 April 2008

Peter, my name is Robert Cutting and I have been doing a bit of family research, My Great grandfather was christened Major Robert Cutting and he attended RMA, he is on the list as ref M18 and i was wondering what the DECL Reg means on the list, is this his father's regiment or the regiment who sponsored his education? Also there is a Cutting W.E. also on the list with the same ref M18 and the same regiment and battalion, he was also released to his mother the same as my great grandfather, is there documentation to say if these were brothers or not? I would be grateful for any light you can shine on the matter.

Rob Cutting

17 April 2006

Rob, It's good to start the day with an easy enquiry. A good guess on your part, I am confident that they are brothers. 1. Same parents, same Regiment and the same surname. Your next step is to write to :- Lt Col. R Say: Bursar : The Duke of York's School: Dover Kent: CT15 6EQ

Ask if there are any records in the school's archives re Major Cutting and his brother W.E. Cutting. Enter details of their admission, discharge, parents and Regiment. Enter your relationship to the boys, 'My G G Grandfather and G G Uncle. I cannot guarantee that the records are available, but so far there have been no disappointed enquirers. I have attached a pdf of the data held re the two boys, if you have any difficulty in understanding the field headings, just let me know. Also an image of the RMA building circa 1908 The term, 'Delivered to mother', is used where boys were not apprenticed nor volunteered to the Army, in reality returned to civilian life.

Peter G

royal green jackets (the rifle brigade)
20 April 2008

Art: I recently visited the Winchester Army Museums with my children, primarily to visit the regimental museum of the Royal Green Jackets (previously known as the Rifle Brigade). I've been having difficulty researching the origins of one of my forefathers who was born in India in 1865, his father is documented as being a member of the 2nd Battalion Rifle Brigade and I was curious as to how they were deployed with the other regiments. The visit to the RGJ museum was very interesting but it didn't bring any answers.

I did notice though, that there were a couple more museums at Winchester. So we had a look around and I bumped into Ian Bailey, who kindly passed on your contact details to me. The man in the Rifle Brigade was a James Charles Cole, and it is his name on the birth certificate for my great-grandfather William Augustus Cole (Although there is a family story that neither James nor his wife Sarah are the true parents.. but this investigation was our reason for being there!) William Augustus Cole was born in 1865 in Meerut (India), and I found him in the 1881 census records at the RMA Chelsea, by 1891 he was a schoolmaster at Chatham Barracks in Kent. After a little investigation I found that he had started at Chelsea in 1876.

While looking though the Census records I found that his (future) wife Alice Mayo also lived in Chatham, a couple of streets away from the barracks. I believe that Emma Mayo (Alice's mother) was a schoolteacher. My grandmothers obituary states the pride she felt for her Grandmother who was one of the first QAS. Not long after the 1991 census, Alice Mayo returned to India (as she had been born there too). William Augustus, must have been given a posting there possibly with the Royal Artillery and they must have married there, as my grandmother was born in Lucknow (India) in 1893 and I can find no other information. Theodora Frances Cole (my grandmother) came to England and spent some time in Aldershot herself being trained as a QAS. I believe she returned to India before the outbreak of World War 1, possibly with the East Yorkshire Regiment where she spent the war years. In 1920, Theodora married RSM Harold Stamp Benson, DCM after he was posted to India at the conclusion of WW1, and this was possibly the end of her career as a QAS. Within months of being married, Harold was sent to the fledgling Iraq, where he was seriously injured in a friendly fire incident by the RAF. They both returned to England, where he was to convalesce before being medically discharged in 1921.

Bit of a story for you Art, but can you fill in any of the gaps? Such as when William would have left Chelsea, and was he a naughty boy? On my mothers side of the family, there were seven soldiers involved in the first world war, six in the Canadian regiments. I have all the service records for these lads, no problem - but if its British records - it's a nightmare…

Nigel Benson

20 April 2008

Nigel: Thanks for your e-mail. You relate an interesting story of family connections with the Green Jackets and the RMA, which naturally arouses our interest. I am passing your message to my colleague, Peter Goble who is much more adept at checking the registers and records of the RMA and for that matter, the earliest records of the Normal School, Chelsea. Let's see what he has in the way of references to your forebears. Your story is, as I said, interesting. It might well be suitable a write-up to publish on the Duke of York's history site. However, that depends entirely on what information Peter has to offer and I rarely try to second-guess him. Meanwhile, with you I'll exerce patience until Peter replies. I do know that our records of the QAS are almost non-existent. If you have any photographs of the people of this history, we would appreciate electronic copies for illustrative purposes. The Green Jackets figure largely in the history of the Duke of York's and the RMA.

Art C

royal hibernian military school
1 April 2008

Good day -- I found my grandfather in the Index of the Royal Hibernian Military School webpage. What a thrill to finally find some solid confirmation that he attended the school. We've always had so many questions about why he might have been sent by the school to Canada as a young boy (age 15) and endentured to a farmer there. My mother (now age 87) has always been bothered by the fact and has asked me to find out why it happened to him. We know that his mother died before he was admitted there, and his father died while grandfather was at the school, two years before he was sent to Canada. Can you direct me to any more information on him and his circumstances at the school? My mother has always felt it must have been some kind of punishment and it has played on her mind.

K07, 37, Kelly, Alfred, Royal Artillary, To Canada, 22/11/1908

Wendy Washburn
Granddaughter of Alfred John Kelly

1 April 2008

Wendy: Thanks for the contact re the RHMS. Unfortunately, most of the archived material of the RHMS was destroyed during an air raid in 1940. All detail that is available can be found on my RHMS web site. This data was extracted from WO143/27 a discharge ledger for the years 1840-1918 added to this is the information in WO143/79 a copy of the admission ledger WO143/79 1877-1907. It does confirm that the boy's mother was deceased at the time of admission. It may be possible to find some details re his father via the Regimental Muster Rolls held at the National Archives, Kew. Some details are available on their web site, but it may prove to be an expensive exercise. I have attached part of an image of the RHMS on parade in 1911, the quality is poor, but will indicate the style of uniform worn in 1908. Boys were encouraged to join the Army on leaving the school, but it was not mandatory. They could either join the army, take an apprenticeship or be returned to their parents or friends. He may well have had connections with Canada, friends regimental connections etc., or may just have chosen to migrate. I must leave that to your research findings. There is an extreme shortage of RHMS boy's photographs, if you do have an image of him, a copy would be appreciated and with your permission, could be added to the RHMS web site duly accredited to you.

I had to pause a while over the name Washburn, then the penny dropped. There is a Washburn Valley not 10 miles from my house, and a river Washburn, all two Miles of it. Commencing in above Pately bridge, North Yorkshire. I sorry that I can't provide any new information, but I am sure that the several pointers in the email will assist you in your research

Peter Goble

2 April 2008

Good morning, I found your web site for the Hiberian school and I am interesting tracing Edwin Walter Hughes (B) 1878 who was put in to this school after his Father was killed in Egypt 1885. Where are his records for this period please? I did find his army record at Kew. He was my Grandfathers brother.

Margaret A. jeffery

4 April 2008

Margaret: Fortunately, your Edwin falls into those records available at the National Archives Kew. Attached, all the information available in two copy ledgers that cover the period; WO143/27; 1840 to 1918 and WO143/79;1877 to 1907. For easy reading I have combined both sets of data to a master data base, and a copy is attached as HUGHES E W.pdf. It confirms that his father was deceased at the time of his admission. The No 2 in the Class field. 1 = Orphan 2 = father deceased 3 = mother deceased. And, that he was serving with the Commisariat & Transport Corps. Edwin volunteered to Army Service Corps, this was the same Corps as his father's. Muster Rolls at the National Archives for the Commisariat Corps may well have details re the cause etc of the father's death. To the best of my knowledge, there are no other records re the RHMS that cover the period 1877-1907. The individual records of each boy were sent to the Archives after the school's amalgamation, allong with the original admission ledgers etc. all were destroyed in a 1940 air raid. There are several other HUGHES', but non where the father was serving with the Commissariat & Transport Corps: However it is possible that he could have been admitted to the Royal Military Asylum, Chelsea, if you let me have your Grandfather's names, I will check.


9 April 2008

I believe this entry to be my Great-Grandfather, is there any way of finding out more detail of this entry i.e. his parents names and further military career?
M18 LEGGETT Ernest D 10 06/12/1878 90th Regt of Foot 08/12/1882 Army Volunteer Scottish Rifles 2nd Bn

Carrie Hackett

9 April 2008

Carie: The names of the parents of this boy are included with the detail you have included, Stephen and Clara. The father is noted as being deceased. I have no other details, but if you write to Lt Col R Say: Bursar: The Duke of York's School: Dover. Kent CT15 6EQ, he may have some other details in the school archives..Ask if there are any records re your relative, state names, date of admission, parents names and Father's Regt. Most importantly, make sure that you add the relationship, 'My Great Grandfather' for example. Further details re his father may be found at the National Archives, Kew, in the Military section and the Regimental muster Rolls for the year of his death and previous years. If you are successful with your request to the Bursar, please let us know. We like to keep a record of school archived material.


9 April 2008

Peter: I am researching our family tree and am led to believe that 3 of my ancestors were placed in the RMA in or about 1902. Their names were:

Leonard Dalziel Sharpe Senior b. 27 Dec 1892; in 1902 age approx. 10y
Gilbert Russell Senior b. 18 Dec 1896; in 1902 approx 6 y
Geoffrey John Senior b. 31 Mar 1899; in 1902 approx 3 y

Their father was Quarter Master Sergeant, of the Dragoon Guards Inniskillings, Geoffrey Gilbert Senior who was KIA 31 Mar 1902 at Boschbult. His sons were taken away from their mother and placed at the RMA. Is it possible for you to confirm this information and share with me their records? I would be sincerely grateful. Many thanks for your time and assistance.


9 April 2008

Catherine: The good news first. Leonard & Geo John were brothers, confirmed by both having the same parents entered and the same Regiment. Gilbert's parents are noted as being George and Jane and the father's Regiment as the Royal Horse Artillery, therefore not part of your family group. All the detail I have is as on my web site. However, write to Lt Col R Say: Bursar: The Duke of York's School: Dover. Kent CT15 6EQ and ask if there are any records re, Enter full names, date of admission, parents names and their father's Regt. Most importantly, make sure you state your relationship to the boy, ie "My Great Grandfather". Should you be successful, please let us know. We keep a record of success via the archives.

Peter Goble


18 April 2008

Mr Goble: I believe my grandfather Arthur Edward Harvey born 12 January 1885 in Aldershot may have gone to the Hibernian School. His father George William died in Dublin in September 1888 where they were living at the time. It is also possible Arthur's younger brother George William born 1885 was also at the school. Would you be able to give me any details please. Many thanks.

Marilyn Balderstone

18 April 2008

Marilyn, I have found your Grandfather, but you will need to confirm that his Regiment was the 4th Regt of Foot. The birthdays coincide, too, a good indication that we are on the right track. The Class No. 1 in the attached .pdf indicates that Arthur was an orphan at the time of admission. There is no trace of a George William or William George HARVEY, that is younger, than Arthur. However there is a George W HARVEY of the 4th Regt of Foot. He shown as being born 25/06/1880. The Class No. 2 Indicates that his father was deceased at the time of his admission. It is doubtful that these two are related, but does not rule out the fact that their fathers may have served in the 4th Regt of Foot. You could try the 1881 census to discover the whereabouts of G.W. Harvey. in 1881 & possibly 1891. Another source of valuable information are the 'Muster Rolls' for the father's Regt. They are at the National Archives Kew, and information is available via their web site.



9 April 2008

Sir, I am a staff member @ the R Ir F museum. A couple of years ago I bought a WW2 group of medals for my own collection & recently discovered both he & his father (WW1 casualty) & possibly grandfather attended the RHMS. Please advise if you would like further & better particulars. I was pleased to see the RHMS article in 'The Irish Sword'. My man enlisted from the RHMS into the RWF 1922, to R Ir F 1928 & SAS 1944 for a couple of months before returning to the 'Faughs'.With the release of the 'Army Book 358' this research is much easier than it once was -

Fus GC Finnegan

17 April 2008

Johnathan, Thanks for the contact. I prefer easy ones, this is proving difficult, but...
Firstly, and unfortunately your GC Finnigan does not make an appearance in the parade doc, as this is dated 1924 and GCF was discharged in 1922 it is understandable. We shall have to wait for the 1921 census of Ireland, but was there one? I find it hard to believe that the Royal Irish Fusiliers are not represented at the RHMS from 1840 to 1918. This may be due to the the transcribers of the ledger only entering RIF, this I have transcribed as the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, and may have compounded the error. There are only 78 names in the possible error list, I will recheck that ledger, a relatively simple task as I have an alphabetic list and page No.

Sources used:
WO143/26 RHMS Discharge ledger 1918-1932. Not all boys entered. Amalgamated with the DYRMS Discharges
WO143/27 RHMS Discharge ledger. Name Petition No Regt Volunteered to. Fathers Regt. Date of Discharge. Not all detail has been entered. Many names missing
WO143/70 DYRMS Admissions 1918-1955. RHMS admissions May & Sept 1924. Minimal detail other than name, Regiment Volunteered to & date of Discharge
WO143/78 RHMS Admissions 1847-1877 Full details + Height weight & Chest
WO143/79 RHMS Admissions 1877-1907 Full details etc
.Last parade state June 1924. Name & Company
1911 Census of Dublin, Chapelizod. Missing name have been added to the ledger and where possible all names have been cross referenced to the combined data base I
have constructed from the available ledgers.

Relative to the law of averages, the Inniskillings do seem to be over-subscribed. There are only 4 Irish Fusiliers at the RMA. On completing the check I will forward an amended list from both schools.


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